You don't matter - and you never did

[NVash]

I think I see the point that the OP, leebase, was trying to make. If ten people are willing to buy the hardcovers of a book at $30 and five people say thats crazy and wait for the paperback then it seems they dont matter. Who cares what the paperback audience wants? The bottom line is those 10 people paid $30 for that hardcover. No need to drop the price there when many people are willing to pay that price. IMHO this practice is horribly obvious as well, look at the price of hardcovers. You may not be willing to pay that price but someone else is and thats who matters. Many people on here have said that they pay the hardcover price for ones they really like, they matter. Not the paperback crowd, not the ebook crowd.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by NVash

I think I see the point that the OP, leebase, was trying to make. If ten people are willing to buy the hardcovers of a book at $30 and five people say thats crazy and wait for the paperback then it seems they dont matter. Who cares what the paperback audience wants? The bottom line is those 10 people paid $30 for that hardcover. No need to drop the price there when many people are willing to pay that price. IMHO this practice is horribly obvious as well, look at the price of hardcovers. You may not be willing to pay that price but someone else is and thats who matters. Many people on here have said that they pay the hardcover price for ones they really like, they matter. Not the paperback crowd, not the ebook crowd.

Ta da! Yep. That's the point. There is a special market for new release books. The books are at their highest demand, and they get the highest price. Despite what you or I or any one else in the paper back/library/used book market may THINK about the price of new release books -- our opinions _about the price of new release books_ don't matter. We have been out voted by those willing to pay the higher price.

There's no crime here. No devaluation of the human soul. Just a market reality.

And yes, the publishers do want the paper back money. So after the new release run, when demand wanes, when the amount of folks willing to buy the pricey version of the book drops -- THEN -- the publisher releases a cheaper product. Only, it's really been the same product all along. It's the price that's cheaper because there is a demand for the product at the cheaper price. But that cheaper price tier -- does not matter when discussing the PREMIUM experience price tier.

Lee

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by NVash

I think I see the point that the OP, leebase, was trying to make. If ten people are willing to buy the hardcovers of a book at $30 and five people say thats crazy and wait for the paperback then it seems they dont matter. Who cares what the paperback audience wants? The bottom line is those 10 people paid $30 for that hardcover. No need to drop the price there when many people are willing to pay that price. IMHO this practice is horribly obvious as well, look at the price of hardcovers. You may not be willing to pay that price but someone else is and thats who matters. Many people on here have said that they pay the hardcover price for ones they really like, they matter. Not the paperback crowd, not the ebook crowd.

But if 10 people are willing to pay $30, 20 people are willing to pay $20, 40 people are willing to pay $15 and 100 people are willing to pay $10, who "matters" and what is the best price. Money made with an initial price of:

$30: $300
$20: $600 (30 people—since the 10 who'd $30 would obviously pay $20)
$15: $1050
$10: $1700

I'm not saying the book should be $10, but what everyone else is saying, that the most expensive price doesn't necessarily yield the best profit. Every step up in price will lose you some customers and the best price is that one that generates the best profit.

I have no problem with the current two-tiered pricing of an expensive hardback released first with a cheaper paperback released later. I just think ebook pricing should be the same price as the cheapest version of the pbook available new. If the only thing out is a $30 hardback I'm okay with a $30 ebook, although I wouldn't pay that. But when the company releases the $8 paperback, they should lower the ebook price as well.

This obvious scheme which has worked for years with pbooks maximizes profit, because it catches all the people willing to pay more to get the book when it is first released, but will yield a second surge of income when released in paperback from people willing to only pay less.

-Marcy

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by leebase

Ta da! Yep. That's the point. There is a special market for new release books. The books are at their highest demand, and they get the highest price. Despite what you or I or any one else in the paper back/library/used book market may THINK about the price of new release books -- our opinions _about the price of new release books_ don't matter. We have been out voted by those willing to pay the higher price.

There's no crime here. No devaluation of the human soul. Just a market reality.

Maybe so... but publishers know very well that the sales they receive from the first-in-liners doesn't hold a candle to what they make from the 2nd tier. Just as movies now make more money off of those who wait for the DVD than they do in first-run theatres, publishers plan for making the lion's share off of PBs and MMPBs. Yes, those people earning them the bulk of their profits matter.

Early buyers are only buying bragging rights... they are an early indicator of a book's popularity... and nothing more. They are a segment of a market, and matter no more and no less than any other segment.

[gimmeshelter]

My Costco didn't have a remainder bin - I looked!!!!

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by NVash

I think I see the point that the OP, leebase, was trying to make. If ten people are willing to buy the hardcovers of a book at $30 and five people say thats crazy and wait for the paperback then it seems they dont matter. Who cares what the paperback audience wants? The bottom line is those 10 people paid $30 for that hardcover. No need to drop the price there when many people are willing to pay that price. IMHO this practice is horribly obvious as well, look at the price of hardcovers. You may not be willing to pay that price but someone else is and thats who matters. Many people on here have said that they pay the hardcover price for ones they really like, they matter. Not the paperback crowd, not the ebook crowd.

Unfortunately, that's not what the OP said originally, and it's not even what he's saying now. He insisted that only the people who pay the full HC price matter to pulbishers, and nobody else does, because only those people "support the art." All the waffling in the world doesn't change what he posted. It wasn't about initial sale prices, it was about prices at all, ever. He's trying to pretend now that's not what he said, but he said it and defended it too many times, and it's up there for everyone to read.

(and, of course, there's the thread title)

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Unfortunately, that's not what the OP said originally, and it's not even what he's saying now. He insisted that only the people who pay the full HC price matter to pulbishers, and nobody else does, because only those people "support the art."

You are selectively remembering what I've written.

From my very first post: "What you can't have -- and never could have -- are the first run desirable books at the price you are willing to pay. You didn't value books enough before ebooks to pay that price -- and you don't value them now. As such -- your opinion doesn't matter to publishers who cater to the millions of folks who actually pay the freight. They did before, and they will continue -- because they value the art enough to actually pay the price that the industry is willing to work for."

I've been clear from the first post that I'm speaking of new, first run hard back books. That's where the industry makes the most money. And, for the most part, the folks complaining about prices have NEVER been those to spend that kind of money for a book. They simply don't think books are worth it. Yes, that includes me.

So what does the ebook change in the reality that new release books are more expensive? Why should the publishers pay attention to folks, like me, NOW -- when they didn't listen to us before? And why should they care about what the cheap folks think when they have millions of customers willing to pay the premium price?

Well, sure they care -- AFTER -- they've gotten the premium money. But only AFTER. Why is this so upsetting when it's been "the way things are" for as long as any of us can remember?

Does Toyota care what folks who would NEVER pay $50,000 and more for a car think about the price of a Lexus? No.

You'll just have to wait for your cheap ebook just like you'll have to buy the Corolla and not a new Lexus if you want to spend less than $15k on a car. It's not that Toyata doesn't care about you AS A PERSON -- they just don't care what the Corolla buyer thinks ABOUT the price of the Lexus.

Lee

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Maybe so... but publishers know very well that the sales they receive from the first-in-liners doesn't hold a candle to what they make from the 2nd tier.

Unless it is a hard cover best seller. And since you cannot predict best sellers you have to have the same price for all hard covers.

[bobavey]

So, is the glass half full, or half empty?

[GA Russell]

There seems to be a recurring theme in this thread that the price of an eBook will fall when the mass market paperback comes out.

First of all, it has been my observation over the past fifteen years that popular fiction hardcovers are not eventually released as MMPB. The only MMPB I see at Borders are the genre titles. These appear to me to be first editions. The general fiction I see in paperback are always trade paperback.

Second, I don't see the price of eBooks having dropped over time. Can anyone cite examples of titles dropping when the paperback came out? I know that the head of Macmillan promised that that would happen, but I don't think it has yet.

Finally, I wouldn't be concerned if the prices of eBooks were typically 80% of the price of the least expensive paper edition, particularly of living authors. I'm much more concerned about the lack of interest (or ability) of the publishers in releasing back catalogue titles of deceased authors.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

First of all, it has been my observation over the past fifteen years that popular fiction hardcovers are not eventually released as MMPB. The only MMPB I see at Borders are the genre titles. These appear to me to be first editions. The general fiction I see in paperback are always trade paperback.

Most of the science fiction authors I read are published first in hardback or trade or both. Authors like Charles Stross, Ian McDonald, Iain Banks, Connie Willis, ans so on. Crime writers like Denis Lehane and Peter Robinson are also published first in hardback.

Second, I don't see the price of eBooks having dropped over time. Can anyone cite examples of titles dropping when the paperback came out? I know that the head of Macmillan promised that that would happen, but I don't think it has yet.

It has been reported here at MR that the prices have dropped when paperback edition is available.

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by tompe

Crime writers like Denis Lehane and Peter Robinson are also published first in hardback.

Dennis Lehane is a good example of what I have in mind. I have never seen him in mass market paperback - only in hardback and trade paperback (two of which I have purchased).

Perhaps the situation is different in countries other than the US.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Dennis Lehane is a good example of what I have in mind. I have never seen him in mass market paperback - only in hardback and trade paperback (two of which I have purchased).

Well, my copy of Darkness, Take My Hand is MMPB and published by HarperCollins (Haprper Torch) in the US. And the book is sorted in the crime section so it is genre literature.

MMPB availability on Amazon. I would be surprised if most of his books was not available as MMPB.

[dogsballs]

is there a differance in supporting the art and appreciating the art?
well of course supporting generally costs money whereas appreciating does not.
i appreciat wordsmiths but dont feel inclined to support them by buying over priced e-books. I may not matter to publishers but dont lose any sleep over it

[leebase]

Originally Posted by dogsballs

is there a differance in supporting the art and appreciating the art?
well of course supporting generally costs money whereas appreciating does not.
i appreciat wordsmiths but dont feel inclined to support them by buying over priced e-books. I may not matter to publishers but dont lose any sleep over it

Fairly said. It's an equal "not caring".

Lee