DRM: What did you buy? (An Essay.)

[gmw]

Originally Posted by rkomar

Where is the honour on the other side? Do you really see this as consumers reneging on some gentleman's agreement? Do the publishers cede you legal access to your purchased e-book for your lifetime plus 70 years? The deal from the big publishers is this: give us your money and take our crappy conditions based on laws bought with our political influence or get lost. Giving us DRM is treating us with contempt. Demanding pure honour from those consumers who choose to deal with perceived robber-barons is asking for too much.

You are not being forced to make these purchases - so "robber-barons" seem unwarranted. The old-technology paper-based books are still available (not that, even there, will you get life+70). No one is forcing you to accept DRM, not even I am suggesting you do this. If you don't like the conditions, don't accept them and don't buy the product - you don't have to act dishonourably just because (you believe) the other person does. The old tit-for-tat argument is how generational feuds get started. To say "if the other acts badly then so must I" brings society to the lowest common denominator, I'd rather hoped we were better than that. (Yes, I know that some recent history proves me wrong, but it doesn't stop me hoping.)

[jhempel24]

I think is what I'm going to do, is I'm going to buy up some eBooks, and I'm going to go and sell them for pennies on the dollar when I'm done and see what the publishers have to say....I mean, I do that with paper books, and they seem to want these to stay on par with paper books, I wonder what they would say about that?

[Worldwalker]

Authors have little if any input over what kind of conditions major publishers slap on the sales of their books. This is particularly true of the cabal publishers, who give the author an advance on royalties and don't want to hear from him until he has another book to sell. Unless they want to go indie (which, if you have an offer in hand from a big publisher, would be leaving money on the table) they don't have a choice. So buyers aren't making any agreement with the author; the author isn't even in the loop.

Buyers aren't making any agreement with the publisher, either. At best, there's clickwrap conditions: "you use this, and you have thereby agreed to whatever terms we want to load on it." The cabal publishers want to give people less than they do with an ebook but charge them more -- for the "convenience", according to some of their astroturfers. If they'd followed that logic when MM paperbacks came out, we'd pay twice as much for a MM paperback as we do for a hardcover, because it takes half (or less) of the space.

It's not a matter of only keeping your word when you feel like it, and anybody who wants an honest discussion, rather than to keep repeatedly presenting one side without listening to the others would know that. It's a matter of not giving your word in the first place. Incidentally, have you ever wondered why these "agreements" (to which you do not actually agree) aren't written in English? At least, not in any English that normal people can read? Have you wondered why the important parts are written in capital letters, which are known to be much harder to read than mixed case? It's not that they couldn't make them readable, or at least provide a summary; it's that they don't WANT you to read them. They want you to feel like you own the book (hence the "BUY" button, the constant references to it being for sale, and so on) so that you'll pay them in the first place, but they don't want you to know the actual terms you're renting it under, which would discourage people from letting that thing anywhere near their computers. They want the best of both worlds. This is not the behavior of an ethical party to any sort of agreement. You wouldn't pay for a car from someone on Craigslist who is clear about the money but mumbles about everything else; why buy a book that way?

As for DRM, something to think about: As things stand, a few hundred years from now even today's copyrighted books will finally become public domain (though I expect "perpetual copyright", accruing of course to the large corporations because the authors, everyone who knew them, and the grandchildren of everyone who knew them, are long dead, to become the law sooner or later). If those books have only been published in electronic format, and it's illegal to remove the DRM, what happens to the books? It's not possible to scan a paper book; there never was one. And it's not legal to remove the DRM, regardless of the status of the underlying work, just like the ebook stores today take public domain works and slap their own DRM on them. So what happens to that book? Even though the book is public domain, there is no way the public can actually make use of it.

I don't break my word. Ever.

But I also don't give it just because someone else says I did.

(and I don't buy DRM-restricted ebooks, but that's another story entirely)

[gmw]

Since I would be unable to respond properly without repeatedly presenting one side without listening to the others I will restrict myself to one small comment:

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

... You wouldn't pay for a car from someone on Craigslist who is clear about the money but mumbles about everything else; why buy a book that way? ...

Isn't this pretty much what I have been saying? If you don't like the deal don't buy the car. Don't buy it and then start complaining about the deal afterwards. (Remember that we are talking about parts of the deal that people readily admit to understanding before they purchased - this is not some obscure fine print. To quote one post: "No, I am quite aware that publishers would rather DRM not be removed".)

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by gmw

Isn't this pretty much what I have been saying? If you don't like the deal don't buy the car. Don't buy it and then start complaining about the deal afterwards. (Remember that we are talking about parts of the deal that people readily admit to understanding before they purchased - this is not some obscure fine print. To quote one post: "No, I am quite aware that publishers would rather DRM not be removed".)

Yes it is obscure fine print. Do you really think the vast majority of people know they won't be able to read the book they paid for on another device sometime down the line?

The Craigslist analogy is not to my liking. I'd say it's more like going to a store where things have always been done a certain way, and having the sales clerk mumble something incomprehensible while he takes your money. People are used to buying books and owning them, and that's what they think they're still doing.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by gmw

You are not being forced to make these purchases - so "robber-barons" seem unwarranted. The old-technology paper-based books are still available (not that, even there, will you get life+70). No one is forcing you to accept DRM, not even I am suggesting you do this. If you don't like the conditions, don't accept them and don't buy the product - you don't have to act dishonourably just because (you believe) the other person does. The old tit-for-tat argument is how generational feuds get started. To say "if the other acts badly then so must I" brings society to the lowest common denominator, I'd rather hoped we were better than that. (Yes, I know that some recent history proves me wrong, but it doesn't stop me hoping.)

Nobody was forced to go through a mountain pass either, but you payed the robber-baron if you chose to. It seems pretty analogous to me (except replace 'pay money' with 'accept DRMed products'). Yes, there are paper books, but for some that's like going around the mountains instead of over them.

I personally don't strip DRM because I never buy books with DRM, so I am in complete agreement with your stance on how to behave. However, that's not to say that I blame those who strip the DRM from books they buy. If I bought such books, I would strip them, too.

Studies were done (back when downloading music was all the news) that showed that people who perceived the music publishers as being bad would be more likely to feel morally justified about copying their music without paying for it. It's not rational, but that's how we are. Book publishers would do well not to lose the good will of their customers if they want to reduce file copying.

I get hot under the collar writing these comments, but my ire is aimed solely at publishers and vendors putting DRM on their books. I feel that this discussion is good to have, and I'm grateful that you have initiated it and are carrying the load. I want you to know that I respect your efforts and feel no animosity towards you, whatever the tone of my comments.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Yes it is obscure fine print. Do you really think the vast majority of people know they won't be able to read the book they paid for on another device sometime down the line?

The Craigslist analogy is not to my liking. I'd say it's more like going to a store where things have always been done a certain way, and having the sales clerk mumble something incomprehensible while he takes your money. People are used to buying books and owning them, and that's what they think they're still doing.

I find it really difficult to predict how the majority of people understand their ebooks (but then I find it difficult to predict how people understand the new mobile phones or facebook pages etc, certainly they seem to see such technology very differently to myself). Do they think that destruction of their reader is the equivalent to the destruction of the paper book? Or have they all read the assurances that they can get their purchase again from from the estore - at least for some limited time? Is it up to the purchaser to be aware of what they are buying (caveat emptor)? Or is it up to the seller to educate their customers? (Or some, as yet undefined, in between?)

Originally Posted by rkomar

... I get hot under the collar writing these comments, but my ire is aimed solely at publishers and vendors putting DRM on their books. I feel that this discussion is good to have, and I'm grateful that you have initiated it and are carrying the load. I want you to know that I respect your efforts and feel no animosity towards you, whatever the tone of my comments.

Thank you for your assurances, much appreciated. I am slowing down now and trying to limit the length of my posts now - I have been accused of repeating myself and suspect it was accurate.


It would be neat if buying an ebook turned out to be much the same as buying a paper book (but as suggested in my OP, I don't think many people ever really considered what they were buying with paper books). I do think it is highly irresponsible of ebook sellers to not have useful provisions in place for what happens when the ebook store shuts down. Something more than a notice to download your purchases is required. That is the sort of thing that raises my ire - and that is the sort of situation in which I would condone the removal of DRM. Note that even formal corporate agreements have provisions for what happens if either party goes out of business, and it is this sort of provision that ebook sellers need to address.

[Worldwalker]

If I drop a pbook in the bathtub, I've wiped out a $7.99 (or less if I've used one of those Borders coupons) book, though I can still probably dry it out enough to finish reading it.

If I drop my ebook reader in the bathtub, I've wiped out a $200 reader and something like 2,500 ebooks (at least, I would if they were DRM-restricted).

I think that's why people are paranoid about the security of their ebooks (and also why I don't use my ebook reader in the bathtub).

It's not likely that something bad will happen to my entire pbook library all at once, at least barring major fires. It would be very easy for something to happen to my ebook reader. While I keep it away from bathtubs, there are always random hardware failures, unfortunate accidents, and big butts. For someone whose ebooks are DRM-restricted, so they can't be used on a replacement device, a loss like that would cost them an entire library. As it happens, my ebooks are all DRM-free, so I have them safely tucked away on my HD (and sometimes read them there) and, since their sources are either PD or clueful, I can download new ones if I need to. It's not an issue for me -- but it could be a potentially huge issue for, say, a Kindle owner and their rented-in-the-guise-of-bought ebooks.

[speedlever]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't Amazon (and maybe B&N too?) archive your purchases so that if you lose your EBR for whatever reason, you can get a new EBR and re-download your ebooks?

I realize that doesn't take care of your ebooks from other sources, but for a DRM site like Amazon, I think you're covered by their archive. Is that right?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by speedlever

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't Amazon (and maybe B&N too?) archive your purchases so that if you lose your EBR for whatever reason, you can get a new EBR and re-download your ebooks?

I realize that doesn't take care of your ebooks from other sources, but for a DRM site like Amazon, I think you're covered by their archive. Is that right?

Of course you are. Maybe not in 5 or 10 years. And don't forget that you are, legally, able to have 4-6 copies of the books on different devices. So you could have the books on a computer, a tablet, a dedicated reader, and a phone. Anyway, the prudent thing to do is always a non-DRM backup.

[speedlever]

I don't wish to rehash stuff that you guys already know (but I don't).

I'm just learning a bunch of this stuff while waiting for Christmas and my K3 to arrive.

When you d/l a book from Amazon, exactly what do you get (assuming it's a DRM book)? I've only d/l a couple of things from the library as a test thus far, so I really don't know how this works.

Point to me a FAQ or thread that explains this if you will so we won't clutter up this thread anymore with newbie stuff.

[Grimm]

Edited. Nevermind.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

I don't break my word. Ever.

But I also don't give it just because someone else says I did.

Agreed.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by speedlever

I don't wish to rehash stuff that you guys already know (but I don't).

I'm just learning a bunch of this stuff while waiting for Christmas and my K3 to arrive.

When you d/l a book from Amazon, exactly what do you get (assuming it's a DRM book)? I've only d/l a couple of things from the library as a test thus far, so I really don't know how this works.

Point to me a FAQ or thread that explains this if you will so we won't clutter up this thread anymore with newbie stuff.

As for exactly what you get from Amazon you really need to hassle Amazon. You will get various people's interpretation here, but up-to-date detail that you can rely needs to come from the source. Anything that is not absolutely clear keep hassling them until it becomes clear.

Without speaking for others who obviously disagree with me on some important points, I believe the main justifiable objection to DRM is that you are subject to the whim of the seller. Too many of these sites have "we can change this agreement at any time" clauses, so what they tell you today may not be true tomorrow.

Once you buy a paper book it's yours and only it's being stolen or destroyed will stop you being able to read it. With a DRM protected book you need to be able to unlock the book to access on a new device (if your old one breaks etc etc), usually by contacting the sellers site. What if that site shuts down (see this thread) ? What if they have a change of policy? What if they are bought out by a company with different objectives?

The main protection you have from big sellers like Amazon is that really nasty policy changes produce such a public furor that they can, sometimes at least, be persuaded to be more reasonable. I leave it to your imagination to how they may operate if purchased by certain other companies. (As an exercise you could all pull out your Windows licences and study some of the implications.)

Do a google on "I Hate DRM" to get a swarm of objections, some related to what I have just said and some are other details.

[doreenjoy]

I guess I don't see the big issue because I very rarely keep books. I read one, it's entertaining, then I get rid of it. If I was a stockpiler, or a re-reader, I guess I could understand.