DRM is necessary and good, stop complaining

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by micomicon

igorsk, if I understood correctly the way this site works, it is engaging in criminal behavior by not respecting copyright law. It seems the equivalent of darknet, except that it's charging customers for stolen goods.

Uh what? They sign official contracts and pay royalties to the authors for the purchased (and even viewed onlile) books. How is that criminal?!

[micomicon]

Re: criminal behavior, I was referring to this bit:

Originally Posted by igorsk

A lot of content on the site comes from the major "pirate" online libraries (now owned by LitRes), where content was scanned and OCRed by volunteers. Many major contributors now work in LitRes (and some are actually founders).[/LIST]

When you say LitRes "owns" pirate libraries, what exactly do you mean? If the content being scanned is protected by copyright, what these volunteers are doing is against the law. (Am I misunderstanding this?)

[micomicon]

Wait, lemme be more specific: if the content being scanned is protected by copyright, and the scanning is being done without consent from the copyright holders, then what these volunteers are doing is against the law.

[MerLock]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

Why is drm important to assure writers get paid??

Well I believe that was the original concept for DRM. So that people can't just simply post their electronic file online for anyone to grab and use for free.

Maybe I should've worded it better, I don't agree that DRM the way it is now is the solution since it's too restrictive but I believe it is important to deal with the problem DRM was developed to solve. That something is needed to prevent people from excessively sharing things like music and ebooks.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by MerLock

I think ebooks have a long way to go in terms of reaching mass appeal. Not only because of the restrictive DRM but because there isn't a common format.

I agree with you. A side effect of a single "standard" format would be that all devices would be inter-compatible, and the vast majority of DRM concerns would vanish. If I could save my Kindle, Sony, Mobi, etc. files on DVDs or whatever and be assured that they would still be readable by a reading device that won't even be designed until ten years from now, then I'd care a good deal less if they were DRMed out the wazoo.

Originally Posted by stxopher

Maybe one of the reasons Baen books do so well in the e-format is because the people reading them aren't so much bound by honorable actions and such but instead are bound by the sociological ties of feeling part of a group.

That's a good point, stxopher. To some extent, it's just another facet of the same point, in fact.

Consider for a moment: what meaning to duty, honor, etc. have outside of a sociological group? Honor to a large extent is defined, or at least refined by the views of a group. To whom is Duty owed but to the group to which one feels the sense of it? The thing is that Duty, Honor, and Doing The Right Thing aren't really remarkable concepts until the group begins to stop observing them. The difference is that the person who answers Duty's call, feels the promptings of Honor and seeks to Do The Right Thing, recognizes that he is part of a larger society than just those people he happens to actually know.

That being said, and recognizing your point that Baen has made remarkable strides to make its customers feel as though Baen is "their" publisher (in the sense that they feel like they're part of what it does), I don't know if the anonymity/lack thereof is really a factor here. It would be very interesting to know how many of the folks who buy Baen's e-books actually participate in the Baen's Bar.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

And the other kind of piracy we must prevent is when you lend the original to a friend. It must be stopped!

I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Court has ruled that this is perfectly legal within the current copyright laws... as is selling the used book. (of course this only applies to the US)

Sorry, I can't find the citation right now... but it is the case.

BOb

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I've floated the idea before of an e-book that was tied to a physical token. Something like the old notion of "book tapes' that appeared in '50s era SciFi. You could loan the token to your buddy, and wouldn't be able to read the book until/unless you got the token back. You could also sell/trade the token and no longer have access to its contents. Most of the traditional things you can do with a p-book would then be feasible with an e-book.

That is essentially DRM which allows for transfering it. I don't think anyone here has a problem with following the copyright laws... they have a problem with the fact that most DRM is not robust enough to allow us to read on any device, transfer to others, etc, etc... without alot of hassels.

BOb

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by MerLock

Well I believe that was the original concept for DRM. So that people can't just simply post their electronic file online for anyone to grab and use for free.

I believe you're correct, except that I don't think those who set DRM up originally were most concerned with making sure the content creators got paid. Now it's e-books, but it was music before that, and neither industry really has an overall reputation for looking out for the originators' best interests.

I remember a time when the music industry considered it a win any time they got someone to hear their offerings, because, generally speaking, when folks hear music and like it, they tend to seek it out. Now they seem to have switched focus to wanting to make sure they get payed before anyone hears so much as a note. Imagine Name That Tune under present music industry views!

Contestant: "I can name that tune in four notes!"
Host: "Okay, but it'll still cost you 99¢ to hear those four notes ... for each of the 100 audience members, myself, your fellow contestants, the crew, oh, and don't forget the 80 million folks tuned in to watch -- "
Contestant: "Forget it! I can't even afford to play if I win -- first prize is only $20 Million!"

[bingle]

Originally Posted by hidari

NB: I can let my friend borrow a p-book and I do not hear any screams form authors or the publishing industry, yet an Ebook causes riots. Perhaps the afore mentioned are afraid of ending up in the dustbin with the rest of us.

Actually, the publishing industry was/is quite angry about libraries. I read an article (that I've just spent many minutes trying to google; perhaps someone else will have more luck) in which the head of the publisher's trade association talks about their feelings on libraries, and how it's hard to try to fight them because of the PR nightmare.

This was all before the Google digitization project, though - I think they may have bigger fish to fry now.

I think this points at why most of us are leery of DRM, though - in the publishers' perfect world, readers would pay each time they read a copy of a book. There are also the arguments that many others are making, about DRM being no barrier to pirates, and being a hassle to legitimate fans.

I point everyone interested in the argument to this thread, where we discussed this at length. I still believe DRM and the business model it represents is doomed in the long term.

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by mores

i'm sorry derek, i didn't know about your situation and apologize if i offended you in any way.
i actually thought you were exaggerating, but even with some "lee-way" you seem to buy A LOT of books, and i applaud your honesty.
because i have read the occasional eBook with OCR mistakes when the credit card was maxed-out again.
anyhow, i'm sorry if i put my foot in it, and i hope you get well soon!

No need to apologize. I've had six long, frustrating years to come to grips with it. Wouldn't wish it on anyone else but I've learned to adapt and move forward. Really don't like to whine about things. And, yes, I've got a few OCR ebooks in my stash - but when and wherever possible I've replaced 'illicit' ones with legitimate ones. That stash keeps shrinking, Shrinking, SHRINKING!

Derek

[slayda]

Originally Posted by NatCh

If I could save my Kindle, Sony, Mobi, etc. files on DVDs or whatever and be assured that they would still be readable by a reading device that won't even be designed until ten years from now, then I'd care a good deal less if they were DRMed out the wazoo.

But NatCh, then you'd probably not have anything that would read your DVDs!

[slayda]

I believe that if authors were more concerned with the actual money they made from their writing than in the "potential" money they lost through piracy, and therefore refused to use DRM and did use multi-formats, that they would end up making more money. Now with a DRMed book they so restrict their market that they lose potential buyers because those buyers don't buy.

That's one of the main premises of Baen and why they make money the way they do business. The, "Don't treat your customers like thieves." argument is IMHO rather inconsequential in comparison with the increase in "actual" money gained through sells to a much larger market.

Bottom line is; authors, writers, publishers, etc. do not lose actual money due to piracy. They only lose potential money, i.e. money that they never really had and you cannot lose that which you don't have.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by slayda

But NatCh, then you'd probably not have anything that would read your DVDs!

Nah, I'd've transfered them to blu-ray or holo-crystal or whatever the heck the "next thing" is just like I transfered all my data off 5.25" floppy disks years ba -- ... um ... excuse me, I just remembered something I still need to media-shift ....

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by micomicon

Wait, lemme be more specific: if the content being scanned is protected by copyright, and the scanning is being done without consent from the copyright holders, then what these volunteers are doing is against the law.

How about all other points? Do they not matter?
Yes, this scanning might be against the letter of the law, but the right holders don't seem to mind. (And if they do, any book is taken down in hours on request.) One writer was actually pretty angry when he discovered all his books gone from free access (his publisher signed the contract behind his back). As Eric Flint says so eloquently, the main "enemy" of the writer is not piracy, but obscurity. Really, I wish everyone arguing for DRM here would read his articles, he addresses about every point raised here.

[micomicon]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Yes, this scanning might be against the letter of the law, but the right holders don't seem to mind.

Are you being serious? Is this a joke?

Let me get this straight: this site is scanning existing works and selling them without notifying or compensating the original publishers or authors unless they notice? Can you explain how this is ethical, given that you already admit it's illegal?

This type of site is what DRM proponents are most afraid of.