DRM is necessary and good, stop complaining - Page 9

Xenophon · 11-29-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think you're taking into account the fact that most of the cost of producing a book is still present for an eBook. All the work done by the publisher - copy editing, the publicity and marketing, etc - is still present whether the book is printed on paper or distributed electronically. The reason the HB costs $24 is because most publishers rely on the HB print run to recoup their costs - the MMPB is where the profit lies. If the publisher didn't have that pretty much guaranteed pay-back of costs from the HB, they wouldn't publish the book in the first place.

Actually, some of us are well aware of that fact. Banging that Baen drum again... They make more money (per copy) selling 5 and 6 dollar ebooks than they do from selling paper copies -- even after charging the pro rata portion of those costs to the eBooks. This is partly because they are the publisher, and thus save the distributor's and retailer's cut of the sale price of the book. Instead, the $$ are split between their web service and the publisher (with author royalties coming out of the publisher's chunk as usual).

eSales are admittedly not enough to run the company on, but they're north of 10% of total revenue -- which is nothing to sneeze at.

In a different note, you say that Baen is a small niche of the market. This is self-evidently true: SF and Fantasy are a small niche of the bookselling market, and Baen is a slice of that. On the other hand, piracy has not been a problem for their sales -- even for books that hit the NYT bestsellers list and sold hundreds of thousands of paper copies. In fact, they continue to sell both paper and eBook copies of books that they give away absolutely for free online. Sales of the books they give away go up, not down! Both in bits and on paper!!

It might not work for Steven King, or for the latest media-tie-in novel, (and who knows for things like text books) but the evidence strongly suggests that low prices and no DRM is the right choice for any fiction that isn't a #1 best-seller. (The highest any Baen author has hit that I'm aware of was David Weber with a #5 best seller. Lack of DRM didn't hurt HIS sales any!)

Xenophon

NatCh · 11-29-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That, of course, isn't illegal with paper books and physical CDs. The problem with digital media is that one "lends" the friend a copy while retaining the original. Perhaps the answer to that would be a DRM mechanism which permits the copy of the book to be read on the unlicenced device, but auto-expires after 24h, or something like that?

I've floated the idea before of an e-book that was tied to a physical token. Something like the old notion of "book tapes' that appeared in '50s era SciFi. You could loan the token to your buddy, and wouldn't be able to read the book until/unless you got the token back. You could also sell/trade the token and no longer have access to its contents. Most of the traditional things you can do with a p-book would then be feasible with an e-book.

NatCh · 11-29-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenophon

On the other hand, piracy has not been a problem for [Baen's] sales -- even for books that hit the NYT bestsellers list and sold hundreds of thousands of paper copies. In fact, they continue to sell both paper and eBook copies of books that they give away absolutely for free online. Sales of the books they give away go up, not down! Both in bits and on paper!!

I've been thinking about that some lately, and it occurs to me that the type of people to whom Baen's offerings appeal might have something to do with that.

No, I don't mean SciFi geeks! It's a bit complicated, so please read the whole thing and I'll try to explain myself.

All fiction, at some level, explores some principles, concepts, etc. of what it means to be Human. Even farce will do so, even if only looking at the question of what's funny or why we take ourselves so seriously.

It seems to me that many, if not most, of the titles that Baen handles consider, revolve around, and/or explore concepts such as honor, duty, and seeking to Do The Right Thing. It also seems to me that folks who enjoy reading those types of stories are folks who are, perhaps, more likely than average to incorporate those concepts and principles into their own lives.

With that as my premise, I submit that folks who are personally concerned with honor, duty, and Doing The Right Thing, are the sort of folks who will pay for their books, sometimes even when they don't have to.

This leads me to wonder if a publisher which dealt primarily with stories about petty, greedy, thieving, manipulative (complete list as you like) characters as protagonists would experience a similar sales boost under similar circumstances.

Please understand, I'm not trying to belittle Baen's accomplishment in this area, only exploring whether it really means what I think it does.

6charlong · 11-29-2007, 01:22 PM

What books actually are is a storage medium for ideas, regardless whether they are made of paper or miniaturized in an eBook reader. The copyright is what DRM is all about. The ideas in a book belong to everyone: the copyright just applies to the way the ideas are expressed.

The US Constitution protects the author's expression in the belief that copyright protection is necessary to encourage the development of the arts and sciences. Americans have always believed, and it has proven true, that the foundations of democracy are mutual trust and the free exchange of ideas. But freedom of speech, press and religion assumes the freedom to hear. The dilemma is that copyrights confer control over the freedom to listen: every book I chose to buy is a book I chose not to buy. Does anyone think that a lack of money mean I chose not to listen?

This freedom of ideas has proven itself beneficial to business and industry as well as to governance and the arts and sciences. The freedoms of expression have proven beneficial if not absolutely necessary. So what's a fair (just) balance between the need to support the creation and dissemination of ideas with the need for free access?

In the case of books, the question could be answered by the publishing industry. Lacking that, governments are forced to arbitrate through the copyright and/or patent laws because the storehouse of the culture's ideas is too sensitive an issue to leave unresolved for long.

At this point I should point out that my background is in history and political science. To me, DRM is only one technology among many possible ways to control access to eBooks. To me, the critical issue is all about patents and copyrights. Should an operating system be patented or copyrighted? How long should protection continue? What is the public right to know if eBooks are not accessible to people through libraries? What are the rights of school children to access texts through digital technology? What is the responsibility of the school systems? the libraries? booksellers? etc. These are very complex issues not easily turned into "sound-bites."

Every country has its own means of governance, so this next part only applies to the US.

Right now there are about nine declared candidates for the Presidency. None of them is likely to win (e.g., if I buy a lottery ticket someone is going to win but not likely me). They know that. The reason they started the election process so early this time is that the country seems to be divided 50-50 between Democrats and Republicans.

Politicians are professional advocates. They try to find out the wishes and needs of the people they represent, and then advocate for the people without regard to their personal feelings. So the issues we see them presenting are ideas that affect the people. Each politician is given a different brief to present. They dangle the ideas out there in an effort to get people to think about the options so the pols can find out what the people want. After the first of the year both parties start fashioning a platform of issues the party will work to accomplish if they are given the resources to do so.

At present, Barack Obama has the IT brief. What he personally thinks, and how the parties will react to the issue of copyright, depends on the response of the people and the industries to what his brief proposes. What I'm trying to say is, that the response to any issue being presented by the candidates from either party at this time enters into what the next government does with regard to DRM.

It would be best for all concerned if the industries involved would settle this without government intervention, although some changes in the copyright laws is inevitable. The core problems with DRM and the writer's union strike, etc., may be resolved between the parties before January 2009, but if we want to have any input now is the time to do so.

da_jane · 11-29-2007, 01:32 PM

And the other kind of piracy we must prevent is when you lend the original to a friend. It must be stopped!

That actually isn't piracy or illegal. Under the First Sale doctrine, when you've purchased an item, you now have purchased the rights of distribution for that one item which means you can freely lend a cd, a book, a piece of art. You can tear it up and create something else with it. What you aren't allowed to do is reproduce it - because you don't have the right of reproduction (copyright is a bundle of rights one of which is distrubtion, another which is reproduction, etc).

This is why it is argued that you never really own an ebook or a digital item. You are merely leasing it and subject to the terms of your contract, you are allowed use for a certain time, you are not allowed to resell or distribute.

This is contrary to the notion of the first sale doctrine but until and unless the courts decide that buying a digital item confers the same rights as buying a physical item, the ownership of the digital item remains with the publisher.

But, in the sense of physical items, that is not piracy.

Nate the great · 11-29-2007, 01:43 PM

@da_jane

That remark was sarcastic, and not intended to be taken seriously. I wrote with the intent of poking fun at HarryT, for his Big Content positions.

wgrimm · 11-29-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think you're taking into account the fact that most of the cost of producing a book is still present for an eBook. All the work done by the publisher - copy editing, the publicity and marketing, etc - is still present whether the book is printed on paper or distributed electronically. ..

Most of the cost? Part of the cost at least. What are not costs on a pure e-book are warehousing, printing, and transport costs. How much do you imagine that accounts for? And consider that copy editing seems to be a thing of the past, at least judging from the crappy grammar and spelling errors I have seen in many books.

The costs for producing software are similar- what makes it such a racket is that these costs are basically sunk costs- you aren't paying any more in manufacturing costs whether you sell 10 copies or 10 million copies.

stxopher · 11-29-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

This leads me to wonder if a publisher which dealt primarily with stories about petty, greedy, thieving, manipulative (complete list as you like) characters as protagonists would experience a similar sales boost under similar circumstances.

Sooo, you're worried that biographies of entertainment people and political figures will never see a dime without DRM?

micomicon · 11-29-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The problem with digital media is that one "lends" the friend a copy while retaining the original.

It is only a problem if you insist on retaining the traditional publishing structure. As I mentioned on a previous post, for other business models it could be an opportunity rather than a problem.

One thing is certain: infinite, perfect reproducibility is part of the nature of this medium. DRM is an unnatural imposition designed to introduce artificial restrictions in an attempt to simulate the pbook-based distribution model.

NatCh · 11-29-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stxopher

Sooo, you're worried that biographies of entertainment people and political figures will never see a dime without DRM?

Weeeell, I wouldn't want to point any specific fingers ....

Actually, I'm more wondering (in the abstract) if there might be any correlation between the concepts which a given book explores (whatever they may be) and the likelihood of those who enjoy the examination of those particular concepts actually paying for the book.

But I don't think that's an especially clear way to put it.

MerLock · 11-29-2007, 02:57 PM

I think ebooks have a long way to go in terms of reaching mass appeal. Not only because of the restrictive DRM but because there isn't a common format. Go into an ebook store and you have to make sure you purchase the correct file format that is compatible with the device you want to read it on. Currently, the availabilty of ebooks is pretty low compared to paper back books and having so many different formats makes it worst because it adds another limit to ebook content.

For example, a book my not be available at the sony store but at another ebook store. However, that ebook store doesn't sell that format in Sony's format, so basically even though that book is available in an ebook it's not in the format I need. That just further narrows down the amount of content from an already small content pool. I know you can do conversions of file types but that just adds another layer of effort that the general reader probably would not want to be troubled with.

It would be a lot simpliar if there was one or two formats to worry about and those formats would be supported by all e-reading devices. If and when that happens, I think ebooks would become very popular because it becomes a lot more convenient. I don't think people like being restricted to a certain file format that is only supported by one electronic reading device.

The MP3 file format gave music that freedom. Many portable music players support the mp3 format and mp3 music files can be found in a lot of different sources. So it's not hard to find the song you want in an mp3 file which will most likely be supported by whatever music player you have. And now that a lot of big companies are doing away with DRM'ed music files, it makes it even so much simpliar for the consumer to buy a song and to listen to it pretty much on any device they choose!

I understand that DRM's are important because the people who develop the works needs to get paid. But I hope ebooks will develop a common format and that a DRM can be developed that doesn't add too much restrictions to the consumer. I feel that DRM should help prevent the sharing/stealing of electronic media but it shouldn't be where it is now where it locks a legit user into using only certain devices.

Liviu_5 · 11-29-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MerLock

I understand that DRM's are important because the people who develop the works needs to get paid. But I hope ebooks will develop a common format and that a DRM can be developed that doesn't add too much restrictions to the consumer. I feel that DRM should help prevent the sharing/stealing of electronic media but it shouldn't be where it is now where it locks a legit user into using only certain devices.

Why is drm important to assure writers get paid??

tsgreer · 11-29-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

....It seems to me that many, if not most, of the titles that Baen handles consider, revolve around, and/or explore concepts such as honor, duty, and seeking to Do The Right Thing. It also seems to me that folks who enjoy reading those types of stories are folks who are, perhaps, more likely than average to incorporate those concepts and principles into their own lives.

With that as my premise, I submit that folks who are personally concerned with honor, duty, and Doing The Right Thing, are the sort of folks who will pay for their books, sometimes even when they don't have to.

This leads me to wonder if a publisher which dealt primarily with stories about petty, greedy, thieving, manipulative (complete list as you like) characters as protagonists would experience a similar sales boost under similar circumstances....

That is a very interesting observation. It also seems to ring true now that I think about it. I think you just may be onto something there...

Penforhire · 11-29-2007, 04:03 PM

I still say the Baen model only works today because e-readers are not widespread. they are in the hands of enthusiasts, like us, who continue to buy paper books and/or support them on principle.

I'm feeling an echo to the concept of public libraries in general. Can you imagine the rights-management outcry we'd have if we didn't have public libraries today but thought about establishing them? Buy a single copy and let anyone with a library card read it? Preposterous! "Writers will never get paid their worth!" Yet we only acknowledge these institutions with reverence today.

Yes the concept of a perfect digital copy, made in an instant, sharpens the argument but the fundamental issue is not that different.

stxopher · 11-29-2007, 04:21 PM

Then let me give you another line of thought, Natch.

Maybe one of the reasons Baen books do so well in the e-format is because the people reading them aren't so much bound by honorable actions and such but instead are bound by the sociological ties of feeling part of a group. Baen makes a LOT of effort to listen to people and let them be as much a part of their little niche as they want. Now that I think about it, hitting the websites of most successful book etailers seems to foster the same feeling.

In other words, you might be willing to stiff a waitress while on vacation far from home but you do not stiff the one at your favorite diner. The ones at the local diner know you. You know them. You are not anonymous.

If that were true then the most convenient DRM would be nothing more than implanting your identity in the file thus serving two purposes.

First would be a sort of deterrent for mass distribution since you are directly linked to the file. Yes, a competent pirate could bypass it but then they can do it anyway. This would just be for casual IP larceny. It might get passed around in the family but not much farther than that.

Second, it would make people feel like the copy is theirs. When people pay money, it just makes them feel better to have something for it. A copy of a book, even if it's not a tangible thing, that says (and clearly so) that it belongs to "Insert Name Here" would help establish a feeling of having actually gotten something for the money. (And never underestimate the "This is MINE! It says so right on it! Get your own!" factor.)

In fact....is that a chicken?...No, no, it's just the way he's holding the grapefruit...cripes, my subjects are wandering again. Back on subject.

Short line: Maybe it's not that people don't pirate because of who they are but more because of where they are (metaphorically speaking, that is).

11-29-2007, 01:22 PM	#124
6charlong friendly lurker Posts: 896 Karma: 2436026 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: US Device: Kindle, nook, Apple and Kobo	Let's get back to basics for a moment What books actually are is a storage medium for ideas, regardless whether they are made of paper or miniaturized in an eBook reader. The copyright is what DRM is all about. The ideas in a book belong to everyone: the copyright just applies to the way the ideas are expressed. The US Constitution protects the author's expression in the belief that copyright protection is necessary to encourage the development of the arts and sciences. Americans have always believed, and it has proven true, that the foundations of democracy are mutual trust and the free exchange of ideas. But freedom of speech, press and religion assumes the freedom to hear. The dilemma is that copyrights confer control over the freedom to listen: every book I chose to buy is a book I chose not to buy. Does anyone think that a lack of money mean I chose not to listen? This freedom of ideas has proven itself beneficial to business and industry as well as to governance and the arts and sciences. The freedoms of expression have proven beneficial if not absolutely necessary. So what's a fair (just) balance between the need to support the creation and dissemination of ideas with the need for free access? In the case of books, the question could be answered by the publishing industry. Lacking that, governments are forced to arbitrate through the copyright and/or patent laws because the storehouse of the culture's ideas is too sensitive an issue to leave unresolved for long. At this point I should point out that my background is in history and political science. To me, DRM is only one technology among many possible ways to control access to eBooks. To me, the critical issue is all about patents and copyrights. Should an operating system be patented or copyrighted? How long should protection continue? What is the public right to know if eBooks are not accessible to people through libraries? What are the rights of school children to access texts through digital technology? What is the responsibility of the school systems? the libraries? booksellers? etc. These are very complex issues not easily turned into "sound-bites." Every country has its own means of governance, so this next part only applies to the US. Right now there are about nine declared candidates for the Presidency. None of them is likely to win (e.g., if I buy a lottery ticket someone is going to win but not likely me). They know that. The reason they started the election process so early this time is that the country seems to be divided 50-50 between Democrats and Republicans. Politicians are professional advocates. They try to find out the wishes and needs of the people they represent, and then advocate for the people without regard to their personal feelings. So the issues we see them presenting are ideas that affect the people. Each politician is given a different brief to present. They dangle the ideas out there in an effort to get people to think about the options so the pols can find out what the people want. After the first of the year both parties start fashioning a platform of issues the party will work to accomplish if they are given the resources to do so. At present, Barack Obama has the IT brief. What he personally thinks, and how the parties will react to the issue of copyright, depends on the response of the people and the industries to what his brief proposes. What I'm trying to say is, that the response to any issue being presented by the candidates from either party at this time enters into what the next government does with regard to DRM. It would be best for all concerned if the industries involved would settle this without government intervention, although some changes in the copyright laws is inevitable. The core problems with DRM and the writer's union strike, etc., may be resolved between the parties before January 2009, but if we want to have any input now is the time to do so.

11-29-2007, 02:57 PM	#131
MerLock Evangelist Posts: 411 Karma: 1034889 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: none	I think ebooks have a long way to go in terms of reaching mass appeal. Not only because of the restrictive DRM but because there isn't a common format. Go into an ebook store and you have to make sure you purchase the correct file format that is compatible with the device you want to read it on. Currently, the availabilty of ebooks is pretty low compared to paper back books and having so many different formats makes it worst because it adds another limit to ebook content. For example, a book my not be available at the sony store but at another ebook store. However, that ebook store doesn't sell that format in Sony's format, so basically even though that book is available in an ebook it's not in the format I need. That just further narrows down the amount of content from an already small content pool. I know you can do conversions of file types but that just adds another layer of effort that the general reader probably would not want to be troubled with. It would be a lot simpliar if there was one or two formats to worry about and those formats would be supported by all e-reading devices. If and when that happens, I think ebooks would become very popular because it becomes a lot more convenient. I don't think people like being restricted to a certain file format that is only supported by one electronic reading device. The MP3 file format gave music that freedom. Many portable music players support the mp3 format and mp3 music files can be found in a lot of different sources. So it's not hard to find the song you want in an mp3 file which will most likely be supported by whatever music player you have. And now that a lot of big companies are doing away with DRM'ed music files, it makes it even so much simpliar for the consumer to buy a song and to listen to it pretty much on any device they choose! I understand that DRM's are important because the people who develop the works needs to get paid. But I hope ebooks will develop a common format and that a DRM can be developed that doesn't add too much restrictions to the consumer. I feel that DRM should help prevent the sharing/stealing of electronic media but it shouldn't be where it is now where it locks a legit user into using only certain devices. Last edited by MerLock; 11-29-2007 at 03:02 PM.

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11-29-2007, 01:32 PM	#125
da_jane Evangelist Posts: 405 Karma: 692 Join Date: Sep 2006 Device: Samsung Galaxy Note 3 \| Kindle Paperwhite \| iPad Mini	And the other kind of piracy we must prevent is when you lend the original to a friend. It must be stopped! That actually isn't piracy or illegal. Under the First Sale doctrine, when you've purchased an item, you now have purchased the rights of distribution for that one item which means you can freely lend a cd, a book, a piece of art. You can tear it up and create something else with it. What you aren't allowed to do is reproduce it - because you don't have the right of reproduction (copyright is a bundle of rights one of which is distrubtion, another which is reproduction, etc). This is why it is argued that you never really own an ebook or a digital item. You are merely leasing it and subject to the terms of your contract, you are allowed use for a certain time, you are not allowed to resell or distribute. This is contrary to the notion of the first sale doctrine but until and unless the courts decide that buying a digital item confers the same rights as buying a physical item, the ownership of the digital item remains with the publisher. But, in the sense of physical items, that is not piracy.

11-29-2007, 01:43 PM	#126
Nate the great Sir Penguin of Edinburgh Posts: 12,375 Karma: 23555235 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DC Metro area Device: Shake a stick plus 1	@da_jane That remark was sarcastic, and not intended to be taken seriously. I wrote with the intent of poking fun at HarryT, for his Big Content positions.

11-29-2007, 04:03 PM	#134
Penforhire Wizard Posts: 2,230 Karma: 7145404 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+	I still say the Baen model only works today because e-readers are not widespread. they are in the hands of enthusiasts, like us, who continue to buy paper books and/or support them on principle. I'm feeling an echo to the concept of public libraries in general. Can you imagine the rights-management outcry we'd have if we didn't have public libraries today but thought about establishing them? Buy a single copy and let anyone with a library card read it? Preposterous! "Writers will never get paid their worth!" Yet we only acknowledge these institutions with reverence today. Yes the concept of a perfect digital copy, made in an instant, sharpens the argument but the fundamental issue is not that different.

11-29-2007, 04:21 PM	#135
stxopher Nameless Being	Then let me give you another line of thought, Natch. Maybe one of the reasons Baen books do so well in the e-format is because the people reading them aren't so much bound by honorable actions and such but instead are bound by the sociological ties of feeling part of a group. Baen makes a LOT of effort to listen to people and let them be as much a part of their little niche as they want. Now that I think about it, hitting the websites of most successful book etailers seems to foster the same feeling. In other words, you might be willing to stiff a waitress while on vacation far from home but you do not stiff the one at your favorite diner. The ones at the local diner know you. You know them. You are not anonymous. If that were true then the most convenient DRM would be nothing more than implanting your identity in the file thus serving two purposes. First would be a sort of deterrent for mass distribution since you are directly linked to the file. Yes, a competent pirate could bypass it but then they can do it anyway. This would just be for casual IP larceny. It might get passed around in the family but not much farther than that. Second, it would make people feel like the copy is theirs. When people pay money, it just makes them feel better to have something for it. A copy of a book, even if it's not a tangible thing, that says (and clearly so) that it belongs to "Insert Name Here" would help establish a feeling of having actually gotten something for the money. (And never underestimate the "This is MINE! It says so right on it! Get your own!" factor.) In fact....is that a chicken?...No, no, it's just the way he's holding the grapefruit...cripes, my subjects are wandering again. Back on subject. Short line: Maybe it's not that people don't pirate because of who they are but more because of where they are (metaphorically speaking, that is).