Amazon Defends Pedophile Book

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

And I think you are full of Bullcarp.......

But thats just me.

It wouldn't be a moral outrage without the hysteria, so go ahead and feel whatever you want.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Let's say this book is 100% legal to sell. In that case, Amazon did nothing legally wrong in selling it. But that still does not mean that Amazon made the correct decision to allow it to be sold. Common sense seems to have been tossed out the window in this case.

and they bowed to pub;ic opinion and pulled the book. it's done, it's over

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But in reality, the book is going to also get blamed for what happened. That's not going to change. You are going to be outraged at the neighbor and the book and you will want to sue the author.

You won't be saying. "Oh yes, the book had nothing to do with this and I will defend Amazon's right to sell it." That's not going to happen. You'd be right there demanding Amazon take it down.

that's a stretch and you should know it. reading a book about pedophilia is not going to create those tendencies. if someone is already inclined that way, they have probably already acted on it. pedophilia apparently has the highest recidivism rate of all of the criminal acts. if the repeat levels are that high, one can only imagine what the initial ventures into the act are.

just because I have read a book detailing lesbian lifestyles does not make me wish to embrace the same lifestyle

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

You're projecting a lot of your personal irrationality onto me and pretty much everyone else. It's just not true though, and I will not blame a book, or even the book's author, for what the reader does.
I also will not support the parents who wish to ban Dungeons and Dragons because it "made" their children commit suicide, even if my child commits suicide and writes a note saying Vecna compelled him to.

D&D has nothing to do with this issue. So let's please leave out the irrelevant.

You honestly feel that if your child was molested by someone who read the book that you would stand up in a court of law and say to the world, "I feel this book should still be allowed to be sold at Amazon and I will defend it to my last dying breath."

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If everyone participating in this thread has a child and said child was molested by someone who bought that book, I do not think anybody would be claiming it was alright for Amazon to have sold that book, you'd be right there advocating for it's removal and you'd most likely want damaged from Amazon and the author.

So don't say it's OK to sell when you know that once it's used as a how-to guide and children start to get molested because of this book that nobody with any sense of right & wrong would still say it is OK to sell.

Jon, Amazon has pulled the book. get off the soapbox. you're disturbed by it, most of us ARE disturbed by it. it's disgusting, frightening, beyond reproach, but it is not our place to dictate what people can say

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

D&D has nothing to do with this issue. So let's please leave out the irrelevant.

You honestly feel that if your child was molested by someone who read the book that you would stand up in a court of law and say to the world, "I feel this book should still be allowed to be sold at Amazon and I will defend it to my last dying breath."

it's exactly the same as your example. exactly. you're frothing, go take a walk

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

and they bowed to pub;ic opinion and pulled the book. it's done, it's over

It's not yet over. It won't be over until the book is no longer showing up in a search. Sure, it's not for sale, but it shows up in a search.

that's a stretch and you should know it. reading a book about pedophilia is not going to create those tendencies. if someone is already inclined that way, they have probably already acted on it. pedophilia apparently has the highest recidivism rate of all of the criminal acts. if the repeat levels are that high, one can only imagine what the initial ventures into the act are.

just because I have read a book detailing lesbian lifestyles does not make me wish to embrace the same lifestyle

It might be just enough to push someone over the edge. A lot of people walk a fine line and it may not take much to cross that line. And this book says it's trying to help the pedophile get a liter (author's word) sentence.

[rogue_red]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Because it's a witch hunt, and I mean that in the full negative connotation. There's a certain aspect of the American psyche where we get caught up in a moral outrage.

Do you recall the mass child sex abuse trials of the late 1980s and early 1990s? The vast majority of the cases turned out to have no basis in fact. Everyone (including cops and prosecutors) got caught up in the hysteria. In a lot of cases, there was no actual evidence and testimony was actually fabricated by the investigators.

And yes, the Salem witch trials and the mass child sex abuse trials did have about the same basis in fact, as well as the same root societal cause.

The author, Mr Greaves, said something similar. He said that the attitude toward pedophilia was hate-mongering due to political and religeous brain washing.

I think that it is completely unfair and narrow minded to condemn the opinions of others over this topic as nothing more that moralistic witch hunting.
I am actually offended that you have seen fit to minimalize the outrage of concerned people and even suggest it is some type of hysteria.
I am not the sort of person to cry foul then go back about my business. I petitioned for this book to be removed. I wrote to lawyers, reporters, internet safety agencies, and tv stations. I wrote to the author and Amazon.
Why?
Rightly or wrongly, I believe that society benefits from structure and laws. I believe that the rights of children, especially their rights to safety, should hold more weight than the rights of adults. Thousands of children are being raped and/or murdered by pedophiles every day. Right now, while we argue over freedom of speech a child is being raped.
I do not care whether the law says its okay to write or speak whatever vile filth you want. That book is wrong, what it talks about is wrong and I will actively defend my right to live in a world where decency and morals still count for something.

[abookreader]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If everyone participating in this thread has a child and said child was molested by someone who bought that book, I do not think anybody would be claiming it was alright for Amazon to have sold that book, you'd be right there advocating for it's removal and you'd most likely want damaged from Amazon and the author.

So don't say it's OK to sell when you know that once it's used as a how-to guide and children start to get molested because of this book that nobody with any sense of right & wrong would still say it is OK to sell.

Sorry JSWolf - but I really don't think you have the right to make up a theoretical situation and then claim to have the knowledge of how a bunch of people you've never even met would react as support of your position.

I agree with you this book is atrocious. It really doesn't upset me to see Amazon halt its sale. Just from the description alone, it was quite obvious the thing wasn't even a real book. It's a bunch of scattered and nearly incoherent rambling from an obviously mentally ill mind. It is kind of pathetic that Twitter marketing gave it so much attention because now ... an infinite number of people who would have never before been exposed to it have seen it.

BUT - when you teeter into the point where you think Amazon should be pulling it from the Kindles of people who legally bought the book while it was available we are going to part ways. Nobody has the right to dictate that a legally owned book that I purchased should be erased from my library because they morally object to the material on it.

In other words, hands off my erotica dude.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But is it legal to publish a guide on how to do something we know is illegal? That is a gray area that the courts would need to decide upon.

The Poor Man's James Bond my friend Andy bought that book when we were in high school. We spent a lot of time after that making little grenades out of co2 cartridges, experimenting with potassium and water, making rockets that exploded on impact and Andy even made some crude napalm that really burned for a long time.

should they sell that? or Anarchist's cookbook ?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by abookreader

Sorry JSWolf - but I really don't think you have the right to make up a theoretical situation and then claim to have the knowledge of how a bunch of people you've never even met would react as support of your position.

I agree with you this book is atrocious. It really doesn't upset me to see Amazon halt its sale. Just from the description alone, it was quite obvious the thing wasn't even a real book. It's a bunch of scattered and nearly incoherent rambling from an obviously mentally ill mind. It is kind of pathetic that Twitter marketing gave it so much attention because now ... an infinite number of people who would have never before been exposed to it have seen it.

BUT - when you teeter into the point where you think Amazon should be pulling it from the Kindles of people who legally bought the book while it was available we are going to part ways. Nobody has the right to dictate that a legally owned book that I purchased should be erased from my library because they morally object to the material on it.

In other words, hands off my erotica dude.

I feel sorry for you if you honestly think that book is erotica.

I do see your point when you say for Amazon not to remove it from those who bought it. But if one child is harmed because of someone buying that book, would you say it was good for Amazon to allow to to be out there?

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Catlady

And you are mixing up the RIGHT of Amazon to sell the book with the wisdom and common sense of doing so.

Again, this is not an issue of censorship, but of judgment. Amazon should have exercised some judgment here, but they didn't. They took the money from this guy to self-publish and then automatically listed his book for sale. (He has several others on Amazon as well, all apparently dealing with sex and/or religion.)

The First Amendment doesn't mean that no one is ever allowed to exercise discretion about what is published and/or sold.

Amazon's own initial statement read: "Amazon does not support or promote hatred or criminal acts, however, we do support the right of every individual to make their own purchasing decisions." [Emphasis added.] Well, in what alternate universe is sex with a child not a criminal act? In what alternate universe is something that calls itself a how-to guide not promoting that criminal act?

A news article about the controversy appears here.

When someone starts claiming common sense as their argument, that's when I know that their position is nothing more than "I'm offended".

I don't care that you're offended. Your emotional state is irrelevant to the discussion.

[JLeighs]

Financially, it was an incredibly stupid move on the part of Amazon to allow this book to be purchased for as long as they did. It is less than 2 months before the biggest shopping season of the year. Honestly, in what alternate reality did they think this would be the right book to use as a platform for being against censorship? Really, really idiotic. And then they caved anyway (for which I am profoundly grateful) after all that postulating about the right to purchase and censorship. Meanwhile, their TOS says (despite their apparent zealous belief in your "right to purchase") that they have the right to decide what you can and cannot purchase at their website.

As for free speech, censorship and what-have-you, as far as I'm concerned, you gotta draw the line somewhere. I don't care what slippery slope it takes us down, quite frankly. The big fat line that should not be crossed is some sexual deviant publishing a book explaining the best ways to sexually and emotionally assault the innocent. So no, I don't support the author's right to publish this book, and I don't support Amazon's right to sell it, even though they both technically have the "right" to do so.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

When someone starts claiming common sense as their argument, that's when I know that their position is nothing more than "I'm offended".

I don't care that you're offended. Your emotional state is irrelevant to the discussion.

And when someone resorts to ad hominem argument, that's when I know they don't have anything relevant to say.

[rogue_red]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

There are plenty of programs that you can purchase to filter the content that comes on to YOUR computer.

Why do parents continue to demand that we child proof the entire world for their convenience? Freedoms also have corresponding responsibilities, one of which is taking the time and effort to raise your own children.

Excuse me? I was making a point that, in theory, somebody COULD download free kindle samples on my computer. Not once have I expressed the idea that anyone other than the parent is ultimately responsible for the safety of their children. I suggest you take the time and make the effort to read back through the thread so as to understand what is being said in context.

[JSWolf]

A lot of people will not be doing business with Amazon any longer. So from a business standpoint it was a bad idea to sell it.