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Old 11-07-2010, 04:57 PM   #76
Dulin's Books
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Bravo Kali
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Kali Yuga View Post
No, it doesn't. It has a different set of abilities and restrictions than paper.

You can't duplicate a paper book for free
How is it different from ebook?
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:49 PM   #78
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It boils down to 'fair and reasonable' profit. So, if paperbacks are priced with 20% (say) profit in mind, then e-books should be priced similarly, albeit with a lower total price that is indicative of the net lower cost of producing, packaging and selling an e-book. We (as readers) are not asking for giveaways, rather we're asking that publishers don't increase their profit margin at the expense of the paying public. Time-tested laws of the marketplace have proven that total profit is relatively the same (you make more unit profit on a smaller volume or lower unit profit on a higher volume). That said, more volume is always better because it spreads the risk.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:15 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by vaughnmr View Post
You're way off base, Kali has it right. I've got 2,000 ebooks, less than 2gb disk space, why in the world would I be using a backup program for that. Just copy the directory over to the ext. HD, 1 or 2 min. and you're done.
I never mentioned a backup program.

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I love the ability to be sitting in the airport waiting area, deciding that I want to read the latest whatever, and get it immediately. Or I can get samples instead of having to buy the book. Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean the rest of us have to follow you.
I said that I don't get it, because I don't. I didn't say that I represent the great group of people who don't care about that feature and the rest of the world should join. How exactly did you interpret the words "do me a favor and explain it to me". Is there a different way to ask for an explanation?

I initially asked if the people who are so happy with the instantaneous part start reading the book immediately, which to me seems like the only reason to be happy about the feature. But Kali didn't answer, and neither did you.

And the second thing is about the sample of the book. Again, I was just asking for an explanation. Reading a sample to know if you would like the book I understand, but carrying it with you? (You didn't say carry, but Kali did.)
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:16 PM   #80
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If you think the solution is to boycott Apple then the BPH's love you. If you continue to buy the BPH products and blame Apple then you're part of the problem. If you disagree with what the big publishing houses are doing then the best solution is to stop paying them.
Amazon does sell other things besides eBooks from the Agency 5. Apple has a clause in their contract with the Agency 5 that they cannot be undersold. That's what led to the Agency model that we all know and hate.

So if we can get Apple to fold as far as eBooks go, then that would be the first step to crumbling the Agency model.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:51 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf
One of the major issues besides the price is that there the Agency Model will not allow sales or discounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Yuga View Post
To be more precise, the agency model does not allow retailers to hack n' slash prices at will, e.g. no specific retailer has a price advantage. The publishers can discount any book they like, at any time, for any reason. And I might add, they often do -- e.g. NYT Bestsellers, plus prices do decrease, there's tiered pricing based on how long the book is out etc.
It's not a matter of hacking and slashing. I get email from Borders that gives me 25-40% off. I cannot apply this to eBooks. Why? Because the Agency 5 say I cannot. But I can apply this to the pBook. It's the same content. So why is the container an issue when it comes to sales/discounts?

We used to get discount codes in email from eBook shops and could actually use them to buy any eBook we wanted. Can we do that now? No. Why not? Because the Agency 5 say we cannot. Bookstores ca put any paper books they want on sale. They can give us a hardcover at 50% off lowering the price lower then the eBook version. But can the eBook version be lowered at all on sale? No. The Agency 5 is out to shaft us. What they are doing is driving more and more people to libraries and the darknet to get eBooks. And once people find out about these resources, sales will plummet. So is a sale of $0 better then a sale of say $9.99?


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Originally Posted by JSWolf
Also, the publishers fail to realize something important. People who want the eBook DO NOT WANT the hardcover. They do not want to pay hardcover price.

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No, what people want is to pay next to nothing, as they curse at the people who are risking their money to get the work to the public in a presentable fashion.

However, the reality is that hardcovers are not more expensive because they cost more to produce. The premium price is actually due to the mechanics of supply and demand; the different form is merely a thin veneer on this process. If you want the book as soon as it's released, you pay a premium for that -- and there is absolutely no reason why this dynamic should change just because the product is digital instead of physical.
No, This is way wrong. A lot of people who read eBooks are doing so because they don't buy hardcovers. They don't want to pay that much for a book. They are the ones who waited for the mass market paperback at a much lower cost then the hardcover. The issue here is not a matter of wanting to pay almost nothing. The issue here is not wanting to get ripped-off and paying too much is getting ripped-off. We also get ripped off when the hardcover goes to paperback and the price lowers and yet the eBook is still sitting there at the hardcover price.

I was OK paying $9.99 for an eBook that was out in hardcover that I wanted there and then. I am not OK paying $12.99-$19.99 for an eBook. A book I want now can sell to me for $9.99 and a sale is made or it can sit at $12.99-$19.99 and no sale is made. Which would the publisher & author rather? The sale at a more reasonable price or no sale at a rip-off price?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf
Also, according to the terms and conditions, the eBook has less going for it the then pBook and thus should be priced less due to these restrictions.

Quote:
No, it doesn't. It has a different set of abilities and restrictions than paper.

You can't duplicate a paper book for free, instantaneously, at no cost; you can't get a paper book sent to you instantly in any location you have an Internet connection; etc etc. Paper has its own set of restrictions that are built into the medium itself.
But with an eBook, you are not allowed (supposedly) to remove the DRM. So I cannot then take an eBook bought from Sony and use it on a K3. I cannot resell the eBook. I cannot lend the eBook to just anyone I wanted to. I cannot give the eBook away. I cannot donate the eBook to charity. Sure, I can do the things you said. But if I wasn't into DRM removal/format shifting, there's a lot less I can do then I can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf
All of this nonsense undermines the value of an eBook vs a pBook. So why are we paying the same or more? Where is the value in that?

Quote:
Because in a medium where supply is essentially unlimited, you're paying based on demand, value, industry norms and the like. Cost merely sets the ground floor for the price.
The demand is for the prices to be reasonable and the value is less given all the things I just stated you cannot do with an eBook. I know there is a cost associated with producing an eBook. But we know the cost is less then the cost of a pBook. So no eBook should ever be priced higher then the pBook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf
You have a book out in hardcover that say goes got $25. the eBook is priced at say $14.99. The think is, would you rather have say 5 sales of the eBook at $14.99 for a grand total of $74.95 or say 10 sales of the eBook at $9.99 for 99.90?

Quote:
That depends entirely on the distribution of revenues and the margins.

If the publisher is making $10 from the $25 hardcover, and $3 from the $10 ebook, they need to sell 3.3 times as many copies just to break even. And of course, in the process you are not merely giving consumers a massive price break, you're cheapening the value of your product and giving authors a much lower royalty per book.

As is the case in most businesses, Margins > Volume. If you don't believe me, start your own ebook publishing business with cut-rate prices and let us know how it works for you.
But the $3 profit they would be making from the eBook priced at $10 is $3 more then they would be making when the eBook is priced at $12.99-$19.99 and I'm not buying it.

Look at BAEN. They sell eBooks reasonably and give away a lot for free and yet they MAKE A PROFIT WITH EBOOKS. How is that done? They do it by not treating the customer like an idiot. For one, they do not have the high costs associated with DRM. And they price their eBooks reasonably. If you want to get an ARC copy now instead of waiting, you will pay a premium price, but that's it. They know their customers and how to treat them with respect.

Give your answers, it looks like you work for the Agency 5 and agree with their tactics.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:51 PM   #82
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Bravo Kali
Bravo? You think defending the Agency 5's tactics is worthy of bravo?
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:21 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Yuga View Post
No, what people want is to pay next to nothing, as they curse at the people who are risking their money to get the work to the public in a presentable fashion.

However, the reality is that hardcovers are not more expensive because they cost more to produce. The premium price is actually due to the mechanics of supply and demand;
Wrong...and wrong....We don't want to pay next to nothing, we want fair pricing...not a price higher than a HC which some ebooks do.

HC cost more to produce, it's better binding, better paper, a separate dust jacket, want me to go on? Please.
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:24 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Kali Yuga View Post
The premium price is actually due to the mechanics of supply and demand; the different form is merely a thin veneer on this process. If you want the book as soon as it's released, you pay a premium for that -- and there is absolutely no reason why this dynamic should change just because the product is digital instead of physical.
Well then. If it's all about supply and demand, just think of the ratings backlash as "demand" fighting back . In any case, the supply & demand argument rather defeats your own point - it is the ONE argument that the Agency model goes against. Amazon (as a retailer) has far more knowledge of the market. Price-fixing is merely a conglomerate (whether it's OPEC or the Agency 5) going against the whole supply & demand mechanism - even seeking to actively pervert that mechanism. The Agency model is a capitalist's worst nightmare.
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:29 PM   #85
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I get really annoyed when the paper book price is less than the ebook price. I also refuse to spend more than $9.99 on an ebook. I don't know if the 1 star reviews will work or not, but I could see the publishers not liking that at all.

My conspiracy theory is that book publishers would prefer it if ebooks failed and were never heard from again. The longer they can stave off ebook adoption the better for them. They won't need to find ways to address piracy, they won't have to give up the margins on the hardcovers...basically from a publishers viewpoint....I can't think of many reasons to be happy about ebooks. They won't have to worry about authors hiring their own editors and cutting them out of the loop entirely.

They are probably happy to stick with paper book sales as long as possible. The 1 star reviews lower the books rating overall....and if people use those ratings...the publishers working so hard to sabotage ebooks are also affecting paper sales. That is why I suspect that the 1-star reviews might have a tiny influence on publishers....but only if people really do use the star ratings to decide which books to buy.

I do feel bad for Authors, though to be honest I felt bad for them right from the start as they never seem to get a good deal. I really hope that ebooks take off and become popular enough for authors to self publish profitably and cut out the publishers altogether.
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:39 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by tapar View Post
My conspiracy theory is that book publishers would prefer it if ebooks failed and were never heard from again. The longer they can stave off ebook adoption the better for them. They won't need to find ways to address piracy, they won't have to give up the margins on the hardcovers...basically from a publishers viewpoint....I can't think of many reasons to be happy about ebooks. They won't have to worry about authors hiring their own editors and cutting them out of the loop entirely.
It's unlikely (surely no publisher could be THAT stupid, right? ), but not as far-fetched as one might think. The bigger the company, the more it is wedded to its existing gameplan, the harder it is for management to really think things through instead of simply digging in their heels and barring the doors and windows to new ideas and new business models. We've seen this with the music industry and the movie industry. The publishing industry is now entering its own adolescence - whether it will emerge a surly monosyllabic teen or a mature adult is anyone's guess.

Anyway, I would be surprised if at least SOME people in the publishing industry didn't want the ebook wave to just fade away (with some help from them of course). Of course, it's too late - it's been too late for a long time now. Someday, Amazon and the other retailers will push back hard enough (because it's the right business decision for them - we're not talking good vs. evil BS here ) and that ridiculous price-fixing scam will go the way of the dodo.

The only question is whether it will happen sooner rather than later - especially with the star rating backlash and Amazon's (almost supportive ) passive acceptance of those reviews (by their refusal to delete them).
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:32 PM   #87
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In the U.S. I think all of this will ultimately be settled by the courts.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20012354-1.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2087...e-ebook-market

http://gizmodo.com/5602646/ct-attorn...-ebook-pricing

Obviously I am not talking about the bad ebook ratings at Amazon. I am not even talking about Amazon.com nor Apple (though the journalists tend to put those two company's names in their article's heading). I am talking about the State Attorney Generals will do a bit of investigation and then their focus will shift onto the Agency 5.

So far in the U.S. we have Texas and Connecticut, I would be willing to bet New York joins in at some point in the next six months.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:38 PM   #88
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Supply AND Demand???

With an electronic resource, supply is close to infinity. The cost of replication approximates zero.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:40 PM   #89
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Lower reviews for high priced items are expected. One has a higher expectation of a BMW than a Hyundai.
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:24 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Yuga View Post
To be more precise, the agency model does not allow retailers to hack n' slash prices at will, e.g. no specific retailer has a price advantage.
In short, retailers can't be retailers.

Retailers of T-shirts can "hack n' slash" the prices of their T-shirts. Retailers of desk chairs can "hack n' slash" the prices of their desk chairs. And, more germane to our discussion, retailers of pbooks can "hack n' slash" the prices of their pbooks. But you're cool with retailers being forbidden to do exactly the same thing with ebooks?

Quote:
No, what people want is to pay next to nothing, as they curse at the people who are risking their money to get the work to the public in a presentable fashion.
Shill much?

That's not true, and you've been here long enough to know it's not true. That's not true of what people want, and it's not true of what people do. Trying to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.

Readers want the free market to control book pricing. For pbooks, it does; for ebooks, the cabal won't let it. I'm afraid I'm too much of a capitalist to think that centralized, single-point control of the book market is a good thing. And yes, many readers do think that temporary use of an electronic file over which they have no control and very few rights is worth less to them than permanent ownership of a physical book, and want to pay accordingly. This is somehow surprising?

Quote:
No, it doesn't. It has a different set of abilities and restrictions than paper.
Like some people are "differently abled" because they can't walk?

If I were to buy a DRM-locked ebook, I couldn't read it on whichever reading device I wanted. I couldn't let my mother-in-law read it. I couldn't sell it to a used bookstore when I didn't want it anymore. I couldn't give it to the church sale or the charity book table or the library.

Yes, if I broke the DRM, I could do some of those things, though still far from all. But we're talking the legal and cabal-intended uses of the book, not what one could do otherwise. The only thing you listed that might be an advantage is sending it to some random location ... but I have more books than I have time to read loaded on my ebook reader already, so I feel no need to buy any additional ones at random times. If I buy a pbook that sucks, at the very least I can give it to some relative who might like it, and earn a few brownie points that might some day turn into them giving me a better book. With an ebook, I can't even do that.

Quote:
Because in a medium where supply is essentially unlimited, you're paying based on demand, value, industry norms and the like. Cost merely sets the ground floor for the price.
You're forgetting one other critical thing that sets that price: what the buyer is willing to pay. "Industry norms" are only meaningful to the industry (and its shills); buyer acceptance is meaningful to the buyers, and there are a lot of buyers. A while lot of buyers. If they won't pay ... well, those "norms" don't do jack for someone who can't sell their products. Buyer acceptance can drive demand through the floor, and despite the cabal's insistence that buyers have to be "trained" to accept $15 as the minimum price for an ebook, it's just not happening.

Quote:
If the publisher is making $10 from the $25 hardcover, and $3 from the $10 ebook, they need to sell 3.3 times as many copies just to break even.
Except that the publisher isn't making $10 from the $25 hardcover.

Just for starters, the distributors (or the big chain stores the publishers sell direct to) get a minimum 50% discount. So that's $12.50 (at least) down the drain right there. Then there's the price of printing those books, shipping them hither and yon, and eventually having them hauled to the recycler. Remember, too, the fact that 1 out of 2 (or more) books will be returned, unsold, to the publisher, to be remaindered for a buck apiece or just plain junked if even the remainder stores don't want them. So when you factor in discounts, the cost of goods sold, returns, and so on, that publisher might be getting only a few dollars for that hardcover, with a small percentage of that going to the author. (if we believe Slate's figures, the publisher may be getting as little as a dollar when all is said and done)

If they make $3 from a $10 epub, the possibility exists, quite strongly, that the publisher and the author are pulling in more money, not less, from that book.

Remember one thing about people who buy books: Those of us who buy them by the armload, like MobileRead members, are in the minority. Books are our primary recreation. For most people, on the other hand, they're distinctly secondary. They weigh the purchase of a book against many other forms of entertainment, such as buying movie tickets, a DVD, a video game, or just chilling out on the couch and watching TV. For MR members, we buy books at the expense of other books (if I buy Book A, I won't have that time to read Book B). Our book purchase are constrained by our available time. For average people, their book purchases are constrained by their available budget -- if a book is cheaper than the alternatives, they're more likely to buy the book. Cut your $25 book to $10, and you may very well sell 2.5x as many of them. If the profit is exactly the same as it is with a pbook, but you're selling two and a half times as many, you're not just going to win, you're going to kick donkeys.

Which is what Baen has figured out. And O'Reilly has figured out. And a bunch of other publishers have figured out, especially the indies. Which is what has happened to my disposable income. They dispose of it for me. The cabal ... doesn't.

Quote:
And of course, in the process you are not merely giving consumers a massive price break, you're cheapening the value of your product and giving authors a much lower royalty per book.
So do mass market paperbacks cheapen the value of books?

If so, why do publishers print so many of them?

Why do so many books appear only as MM paperbacks?

Why do authors seem quite content to get those royalties?

And why is selling an ebook for the price of a pbook count as a "massive price break" for anyone who doesn't think that an ebook, with all its restrictions and limitations, shouldn't sell for more than a pbook that is so much more usable?

Quote:
As is the case in most businesses, Margins > Volume. If you don't believe me, start your own ebook publishing business with cut-rate prices and let us know how it works for you.
It's been done.

It seems to be working quite well, from the look of my PayPal account. Baen got me again. And I'm not caught up with the last batch yet! Plus there's what happened at O'Reilly's 2-for-1 sale ... ouch. Let's not even go into what authors who promote their books here on MR have done; when someone sells a book at impulse-buy prices, I'll buy it on impulse even if I don't know when I'll be able to get to reading it.

I remember the old Gramercy Park Clothes commercials. Particularly, I remember "We'd rather sell a million suits at a buck profit than one suit at a million profit." As I understand it, they were quite successful. Publishers and their million-dollar suits, so to speak, might do well to take a look at that tactic. If someone sells me ten books at a dollar profit or one book at a ten dollar profit, they're making the same ... and I'm a lot more likely to buy ten books.
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