LCD vs. e-ink

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by rkomar

I found I had similar problems with reading complicated, technical specifications in PDF format on-screen, as opposed to the printed-out versions.

Well, I did say:
"If you were reading a document meant for printing, chances are that it was not optimized for on-screen comprehension."

Learning is not supposed to be done on a computer screen. At least not in the way that text is written now. There are two issues:

1. Eyes were not meant to look at sources of light, we are supposed to get information from reflected, and mostly scattered light. The effect might come close for some devices, but it is not exactly the same.

2. Reading was meant to be done from texts that are on an object that you hold in your hand. On some level, your brain is supposed to know the distance between the eye and the text. Sitting behind a desk you have to compromise between the best position for your back and the best position for your eye sight.

[monkeyluis]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Well, I did say:
"If you were reading a document meant for printing, chances are that it was not optimized for on-screen comprehension."

Learning is not supposed to be done on a computer screen. At least not in the way that text is written now. There are two issues:

1. Eyes were not meant to look at sources of light, we are supposed to get information from reflected, and mostly scattered light. The effect might come close for some devices, but it is not exactly the same.

2. Reading was meant to be done from texts that are on an object that you hold in your hand. On some level, your brain is supposed to know the distance between the eye and the text. Sitting behind a desk you have to compromise between the best position for your back and the best position for your eye sight.

All of my classes are online. Our books too.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by monkeyluis

All of my classes are online. Our books too.

1. Those would definitely be designed for on-screen reading.
2. People that work intensively with computers develop the habit of being at a fixed distance from the screen, at least when reading something. They move around more when something annoys them.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Well, I did say:
"If you were reading a document meant for printing, chances are that it was not optimized for on-screen comprehension."

I would say that all my on-screen reading falls into that category. Can you provide links to some documents that are optimized? I'm keen to see the difference.

As to your other points (shining light, wrong reading distance), they seem reasonable to me. I usually lean forward or backward while sitting at a computer to get the distance that feels best, so it's clear that it makes a difference.

[Salgueiros]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

For reading, and reading only:

Advantages of E-ink:
- battery
- reading outside
- similar to paper

Advantages of LCD:
- color
- better contrast
- faster page turn

If you want all of the above, you are going to have to wait for a different technology.

color, is secondary if you read books without images and they are probably the majority, contrast might be relevant if it is not above a tolerable minimum.
The page turn speed i don't think it is an issue, when you turn a page every 90 sec or so. So those disadvantages are not very relevant if you don't read books like manga or with plenty of illustrations, so i think eink got a very good answer to readers needs with this technology so far, however everything is subject to improvement...

[RockdaMan]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Your body will tell you what it finds more comfortable, not a report or study.

I agree with this.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Salgueiros

color, is secondary if you read books without images and they are probably the majority, contrast might be relevant if it is not above a tolerable minimum.
The page turn speed i don't think it is an issue, when you turn a page every 90 sec or so. So those disadvantages are not very relevant if you don't read books like manga or with plenty of illustrations, so i think eink got a very good answer to readers needs with this technology so far, however everything is subject to improvement...

You are forgetting about art books, text books, user manuals, magazines, articles. They don't need to have plenty of illustrations. The eye can only distinguish between 32 levels of grey, so there is a limit to what you can do with grayscale.

The way people are reacting to a new screen, with slightly better contrast, it is obvious that the majority finds it relevant.

Zoom = refresh = page turn for E-ink, so if you find a text that can't be reflowed, and you need to move around the screen, it is going to be an issue.

I'm not saying that everybody needs this, but you seem to be restricting the definition of reading.

[JimKal]

Originally Posted by Jakie

It seems to me this is a forum about reading....not only devices. We seem to lose sight (sorry about the pun -not) that regardless which screen method, we ARE reading, and electronically at that. I have read on PDA, netbook, android pad with cheap resisitive screen, and will pick up an e ink reader in the near future. Global statements that X cannot be used for reading, because...does not stand up to scrutiny. I am glad that we like the device we have...after all, we bought it. Let's not try to convert the world. Remember, " a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" End of sermon.

You make good point about tolerance for other people's choices about reading devices. However, if you look at the various forums I think you would have to include that this site is about devices as well as mobile reading.

Far too many people devote too much time and effort into acting other people's choices. Personally, I have an iPad and find that I'm reading more than I did before I got it and now prefer it to "real" books. That was unexpected. While I don't have any real expertise on the subject as I'm not an optomologist, I've been told that eyestrain occurs when we focus on anything for too long a period. The last time I asked a medical person, they recommended not reading for more than 45 minutes at a time and then to give my eyes a break.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by JimKal

Far too many people devote too much time and effort into acting other people's choices.

Other people's choices matter as a whole. Developers don't have infinite time and resources, and there is the hope that marketing people will look at threads that have "vs." in the title, and get the right idea about what they should invest in.

So the situation is reduced to extremes:
E-ink side: LCD works fine for multimedia but ereader developers shouldn't waste time with it, I don't care if you can read on it.

LCD side: The past few years were focused only on E-ink, we got as much as we can out of it, it is time for ereader developers to look at something else.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

For reading, and reading only:

Advantages of E-ink:
- battery
- reading outside
- similar to paper

Advantages of LCD:
- color
- better contrast
- faster page turn

If you want all of the above, you are going to have to wait for a different technology.

Couldn't care less about colour myself. And a faster page turn isn't a given either, that depends on the hardware, the same as with e-ink screens.

But what about a backlit screen? For some people that could be a very important advantage of LCD. So much even, that they won't even consider e-ink even though that might have some other advantages that they'd like.

And reading outside: I can read perfectly outside on one of my LCD screens. Even in direct sunlight. So, that's also not only on e-ink screens.

People simply forget that there are so many different type of LCD screens that there is always one that will fit your need. No backlight? No problem, here you have a reflective screen. Reading outside? No problem, try this transflective screen. Colour? No problem, you have a choice between this transflective or this transparent screen.

[ziegl027]

I don't *think* I've ever contributed to one of these threads before, but my memory is poor so forgive me if I am repeating myself....

I hate cantaloupe. I've tried it any number of times in any number of recipes. I've tried it when people have assured me that the problem is not that I don't like cantaloupe, but the cantaloupes I have tried have been lousy supermarket melons. "Here, try my vine-ripened home-grown heirloom!". Blech. I hate cantaloupe badly enough that I dislike eating fruit salad that has cantaloupe in it, even if I do not eat the cantaloupe itself.

Does cantaloupe physically harm me? Of course not, it's a fine nutritious food.

Is the throat-closing queasy feeling I get when tasting it psychosomatic? I won't deny the possibility, but what am I supposed to do about it? Get hypnosis or psychotherapy sessions just so I can eat a fruit that is easily avoided?

Will I eat cantaloupe if I need to, if I'm in a social situation where I must to serve Miss Manners, or if I were in a hellish alternate universe where I was employed as a cantaloupe inspector? In such a universe might I become accostomed enough to the vile fruit to where it is not so repulsive? Well, I guess. But I for damn sure am not going to stop by the grocery on the way home to pick up a melon for dessert.

Does my hatred of cantaloupe stem from the marketing tactics of the papaya council brainswashing me? Don't be ridiculous.

I just don't like cantaloupe.

And it's really, really annoying to have people harping on me about "Why don't you like cantaloupe? Have you tried it prepared in "x" fashion? This one is delicious, take a bite!" for FORTY. FRIGGIN. YEARS.

You want cantaloupe, you can have it. Heck, I'll probably grow some in my garden next year because many people in my family do like cantaloupe. Somebody comes up with a cantaloupe that looks a lot like a cantaloupe and has the nutrition of a cantaloupe, but doesn't TASTE (supposedly--I'm looking at YOU, honeydew) like a cantaloupe, I'll give it a whirl.

But in the meantime I'll stick with papayas, thanks. Even if they are a little more expensive.

[Salgueiros]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

You are forgetting about art books, text books, user manuals, magazines, articles. They don't need to have plenty of illustrations. The eye can only distinguish between 32 levels of grey, so there is a limit to what you can do with grayscale.

The way people are reacting to a new screen, with slightly better contrast, it is obvious that the majority finds it relevant.

Zoom = refresh = page turn for E-ink, so if you find a text that can't be reflowed, and you need to move around the screen, it is going to be an issue.

I'm not saying that everybody needs this, but you seem to be restricting the definition of reading.

When i was talking about books with illustrations i was also thinking about art books. Regarding these, i think that these books probably will be the ones less likely to be read in electronic devices, at least in the near future, due to its nature, (remember the unusual size of these books in the bookstores, the prolific colour, the detail in some pictures... and also the intended use, they seem made as to be a premium or luxury object not only a regular book) so as far as technology goes now i don't see a big migration from paper to electrons.
Magazines i agree will be a big target for electronic readers. Right now i already read some in my Kindle DX but it is not yet perfect. Colour would be a big bonus indeed.

I thought the contrast was not too satisfactory in the previous eink models, so any improvement is welcome.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

And reading outside: I can read perfectly outside on one of my LCD screens. Even in direct sunlight. So, that's also not only on e-ink screens.

I have yet to see one myself. Not iPhone but a gadget with 6" screen or bigger.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Couldn't care less about colour myself. And a faster page turn isn't a given either, that depends on the hardware, the same as with e-ink screens.

Of course, if you don't care about color, then you don't care about color. If you look at the left side of the screen, you can see that I chose to buy an E-ink reader, so that wasn't an issue for me. But color is an advantage of LCD, and the list was meant to be general.
The way that E-ink works limits the refresh speed. That can be improved up to a point, but it is not going to be as fast as an LCD can get. Of course you can stick the LCD screen to the cheapest hardware available, but I wasn't really trying to compare the cheapest LCD device to the most performant E-ink.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

But what about a backlit screen? For some people that could be a very important advantage of LCD. So much even, that they won't even consider e-ink even though that might have some other advantages that they'd like.

There was no point of going there since the argument on the E-ink side is that you can attach a reading lamp, and I'm not sure if there are more people who consider a backlit screen to be a problem, but they are definitely louder in an argument.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

And reading outside: I can read perfectly outside on one of my LCD screens. Even in direct sunlight. So, that's also not only on e-ink screens.

Fist of all, E-ink is made to be used with light shining on it, so all E-ink devices share that feature. And you are right, LCD screens do exist for that, and my phone has one, but I'm guessing that beside the loss in contrast, there would be a very high increase in price, to the point that it wouldn't make sense to use them for ereaders.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

People simply forget that there are so many different type of LCD screens that there is always one that will fit your need. No backlight? No problem, here you have a reflective screen. Reading outside? No problem, try this transflective screen. Colour? No problem, you have a choice between this transflective or this transparent screen.

Yes, but they are going to get marketed for readers one at a time, and some won't get to that point since every thing has downsides, some of which might interfere with essential aspects of an ereader. I've used a knife instead of a screwdriver quite a few times, but nobody is going to market it for that.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Salgueiros

When i was talking about books with illustrations i was also thinking about art books. Regarding these, i think that these books probably will be the ones less likely to be read in electronic devices, at least in the near future, due to its nature, (remember the unusual size of these books in the bookstores, the prolific colour, the detail in some pictures... and also the intended use, they seem made as to be a premium or luxury object not only a regular book) so as far as technology goes now i don't see a big migration from paper to electrons.

Well, there are two types: the ones that are mostly pictures (that fit the whole page) and the ones that have mostly text, and talk about the composition and history of the object that they present.

LCDs can be very good with color and for details you have zoom. Sometimes you can see a zoomed-in portion showing a specific part of a painting in one of these books. with an LCD you could do that for the whole painting. These books would also weigh more than a large size ereader.

They are sold as premium objects because of the price, and that comes mostly from the high quality paper. And there would be no incentive for pirating since most of the images can be found online.
I usually buy this type of books when I go to a museum. I have more time to look at the real thing if I'm not trying to take pictures, the quality is better anyway and I can read the description in my own time. If they would come as ebooks, I would probably buy more.