LCD vs. e-ink

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I'm not sure if you actually read my explanation, or you just missed the part about the eyes adjusting to the amount of light. That is done by modifying the size of your pupil.

Let's say that the amount of light coming from a light emitting screen (that you are looking at in the dark) is focused on 10% or your retina. Let's call the amount of light that falls in this case on 1% of your retina, right in the middle where the image is focused "P" for pain.

Now you turn on the light making the room as bright as the screen. That means that if the pupil would be the same size, you would have the same "P" amount of light, now for every % of your retina. However, the iris contracts, making the pupil smaller, so that the same amount falls in sum on the whole of your retina, that means that in this example your pupil will be reduced to 1/10. That means that for the 1% of the area in the center of where the image is focused you now get 10%P from the screen + 10% from the ambient light=20%P.

Obviously, you can look 5 times longer at the screen in a brightly lit room.

Ok, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for detailed explanation. So the fact that screen is backlighted can interact with eye mechanics to cause those effects. I need to readjust the opinion I formed on this.

So I went back and re-read the whole thread once more - and found I missed a post:

Originally Posted by ColdSun

Uh huh. Well thanks for that tidbit, but I think my words were pretty clear.

1. Folks who say LCD "damages" their eyes are incorrect. I do not assume that anyone here has said that but it is a popular belief these days.
2. I actually think eink technology is great. It just doesn't fit my requirement.
3. LCD causing more eye strain than another technology is purely on a person-by-person basis and more related to age and/or an issue with a user's eyes. To make you happy, I'll retract my statement about it being a myth, as eye strain exists, but LCD technology itself is not the cause. This very thread has provided responses from users that say eink causes eye strain for them, or LCD for another group of users.
4. Previous statements about eink readers and what the majority of readers desire in their device stands firm. There is no proof that even half the people that read a lot or use eink would always choose an eink device.

We can go over this again and again, and as you say this is a dead horse. The funny thing is, you don't like how I say it, but its ok for the guy above to tell everyone that LCD is bad for their eyes... Go figure. You know what though, I don't think you should be telling me how I should say anything and keep the personal opinions about me out of it.

So, what you're actually saying is that various people react to various screens in various ways, and you agree that some of them experience headaches reading on LCD screens, and not on e-ink screens, but what you object to is saying that the specific way the LCD technology works causes eyestrain/headaches?
I agree with that - what I was objecting to is saying that LCD screens don't cause headaches for some people, as I believe they do (as CRT screens and any other backlit screens do).
I'm sorry for not reading all the posts in the thread with enough insight to give me precise enough picture of your thoughts - and specifically for missing the importance of the one quoted above, as I think this is the only one from which it's clear to me that we're not in disagreement, just misunderstanding. I'm also sorry for some of my answers to you - having gained a thick enough skin to participate in Internet discussions, I nevertheless should have concentrated on the cause of difference of opinions more.
Though I have to say you did detract from the topic in few of your answers as well
By the way, is iPhone even LCD technology? It looks nearly the same, but I think the technology is different.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Salgueiros

Exactly. For reading, and reading only, eink is better.

No. If i only had an e-ink device, I'd hardly be able to read (maybe 5-10 minutes a day). While I now read about 3 hours each day (working day, naturally, in weekends and holidays, all bets are off...)

So, how can an e-ink device be better?

When people finally get that there is no "better", the world would be a much better place... It all depends on the person and the situation what decides which is better, if there even is one...

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

So, what you're actually saying is that various people react to various screens in various ways, and you agree that some of them experience headaches reading on LCD screens, and not on e-ink screens, but what you object to is saying that the specific way the LCD technology works causes eyestrain/headaches?
I agree with that - what I was objecting to is saying that LCD screens don't cause headaches for some people, as I believe they do (as CRT screens and any other backlit screens do).
I'm sorry for not reading all the posts in the thread with enough insight to give me precise enough picture of your thoughts - and specifically for missing the importance of the one quoted above, as I think this is the only one from which it's clear to me that we're not in disagreement, just misunderstanding. I'm also sorry for some of my answers to you - having gained a thick enough skin to participate in Internet discussions, I nevertheless should have concentrated on the cause of difference of opinions more.
Though I have to say you did detract from the topic in few of your answers as well
By the way, is iPhone even LCD technology? It looks nearly the same, but I think the technology is different.

And I'm sorry if my responses in this thread came off the wrong way, as they were not meant to cause hostility, and I understand why it may have angered folks. Next time I'll work on my wording a little more.

iPhone is LCD LED technology from what I understand, which uses a very high resolution high quality screen. I think a dedicated iPhone user can be more precise, but right now the G4 iPhones are a step ahead of most LCD screens. Even the iPad screen quality isn't as good as G4 iPhone, which with the proper contrast settings should be near to a paper-like look, but I doubt it would give you that same paper-like feel that eink does. Edited Note: The Nook Color has a similar high quality screen, hence the excitment from some of us.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

So, what you're actually saying is that various people react to various screens in various ways, and you agree that some of them experience headaches reading on LCD screens, and not on e-ink screens, but what you object to is saying that the specific way the LCD technology works causes eyestrain/headaches?
I agree with that - what I was objecting to is saying that LCD screens don't cause headaches for some people, as I believe they do (as CRT screens and any other backlit screens do).

There are two basic parts to a discussion like this: the objective facts about how different displays work, and the subjective response of the viewers to the displays.

The subjective part is the critical one. If a user says "I can't read on an LCD screen for any period of time. It gives me a headache.", it largely doesn't matter whether they have the correct (or any) notion of how LCD displays work. The simple fact is that they can't read them. Why they have the problem is likely beyond discovery in a forum like this.

If someone says "I'm not comfortable reading X display" for any value of X, I take their word for it. My challenge is to discover what sort of display they can comfortably read, and make suggestions of devices using that display that might fit their budget and usage habits.

I read on an LCD display and have no problems doing so. eInk isn't a good option for me because I need color support, and want a device that does more than most dedicated readers. I specifically want a multi-function device that views ebooks as one supported function. But I don't assume I'm representative, and applaud heartily if someone gets an eInk based device that suits them and starts happily reading.
______
Dennis

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The subjective part is the critical one. If a user says "I can't read on an LCD screen for any period of time. It gives me a headache.", it largely doesn't matter whether they have the correct (or any) notion of how LCD displays work. The simple fact is that they can't read them. Why they have the problem is likely beyond discovery in a forum like this.

If someone says "I'm not comfortable reading X display" for any value of X, I take their word for it. My challenge is to discover what sort of display they can comfortably read, and make suggestions of devices using that display that might fit their budget and usage habits.

Right, the problem is when that person says 'You shouldn't get an LCD device because it will give you headaches'.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Right, the problem is when that person says 'You shouldn't get an LCD device because it will give you headaches'.

In which case, the appropriate response is probably "I'm sorry if you have the problem, but I read on an LCD display with no problems, and so do lots of others. The user needs to try it for herself, along with an eInk device, and see what works better. LCD displays don't give everybody headaches."
______
Dennis

[ski_power]

Like mentioned earlier, a fair comparison would have to be between backlit and non-backlit screens.
When you mention LCD, monochrome counts too and I find those to be champs, just as good as eink in sunlight with the added advantage of superfast refreshes.

[rkomar]

I don't know if this has ever been discussed here at MR before, but personally, I have a problem with information retention when reading from CRT and LCD displays. I find that I just don't remember as much afterwards compared to reading from paper (and now E-Ink). It's not really noticeable with light reading, but I do a fair bit of heavy, technical reading, and I can tell the difference there. I should say that I don't notice much eye strain when reading from CRT and LCD displays for long periods.

Has anyone here noticed anything similar?

[astra]

Originally Posted by rkomar

I don't know if this has ever been discussed here at MR before, but personally, I have a problem with information retention when reading from CRT and LCD displays. I find that I just don't remember as much afterwards compared to reading from paper (and now E-Ink). It's not really noticeable with light reading, but I do a fair bit of heavy, technical reading, and I can tell the difference there. I should say that I don't notice much eye strain when reading from CRT and LCD displays for long periods.

Has anyone here noticed anything similar?

Yep. When I was studying a course that was purely on-line I had this problem. I acquired a book later, that was not the same material but close enough and I have noticed the difference.

[Salgueiros]

Originally Posted by rkomar

I don't know if this has ever been discussed here at MR before, but personally, I have a problem with information retention when reading from CRT and LCD displays. I find that I just don't remember as much afterwards compared to reading from paper (and now E-Ink). It's not really noticeable with light reading, but I do a fair bit of heavy, technical reading, and I can tell the difference there. I should say that I don't notice much eye strain when reading from CRT and LCD displays for long periods.

Has anyone here noticed anything similar?

Yes, I noticed that too, i guess the slight discomfort i feel when reading on a LCD display prevents me from focusing or paying as much attention as when i use a e-ink. Must be all that light...

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by ski_power

This.
I've had eyestrain while using the iPad like I mentioned previsouly. But no strain except for extended periods of usage of my tiny 2.8' mobile screen display for years. This leads me to conclude what ColdSun says must be true. That it is based not just on the display technology, but upon the reading conditions as well. I'm pretty sure though, we all can agree on one thing that on a backlit screen(whichever tech) dark bg + light text > light bg + dark text.

Yes, size will mater. You eye don't move the same way on a larger screen. Quality of the screen , luminosity. There are lost of factors.

I've read on my archos, didn't liked the experience much. Partly because of the software, partly because of the screen. A really white background is not comfortable, neither is back background with white text. i really good lcd with a yellowish background might do better.

Then, the is the sunlight / battery issue. Not the long ago, I was in the train, pestering about my ds's screen that was rendered un-readable by the sunlight. And battery, i like the knowledge i can go on week end, and that my reader will hold, even if I use it lots.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by rkomar

I don't know if this has ever been discussed here at MR before, but personally, I have a problem with information retention when reading from CRT and LCD displays. I find that I just don't remember as much afterwards compared to reading from paper (and now E-Ink). It's not really noticeable with light reading, but I do a fair bit of heavy, technical reading, and I can tell the difference there. I should say that I don't notice much eye strain when reading from CRT and LCD displays for long periods.

Has anyone here noticed anything similar?

For comprehension there are many things to consider: font size, paragraph size, line spacing, line length, etc. If you were reading a document meant for printing, chances are that it was not optimized for on-screen comprehension. There are fonts that were specifically designed for this purpose. The more your reader imitates paper, the easier it will be to read on it (and remember) something that was designed for paper.

Computer screens are landscape.
Books are portrait.
Scientific articles and text books are portrait and have columns.

With a hand held device and the right software you should be able to optimize a text for comprehension if you take under consideration the type of screen.

I'm assuming that the LCD that you mentioned didn't belong to a hand held device.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by Salgueiros

Exactly. For reading, and reading only, eink is better.

For multitasking, other devices are better suited.

For me, e-ink offers no advantage. I concentrate fine while reading on devices that multitask. I concentrate well enough that I've missed my bus stop while traveling abroad and reading on iDevices, lol. My eyesight is fine with print, e-ink or LCD.

I figure each person has differing preferences, eyesight and ability to concentrate, so it makes no sense to say that X works best. It's simply not possible for any one device or technology to suit everyone best.

If someone were to ask me for a recommendation, I'd ask about that person's eyesight, ability to concentrate, etc., rather than project mine onto him/her.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

For comprehension there are many things to consider: font size, paragraph size, line spacing, line length, etc. If you were reading a document meant for printing, chances are that it was not optimized for on-screen comprehension. There are fonts that were specifically designed for this purpose. The more your reader imitates paper, the easier it will be to read on it (and remember) something that was designed for paper.

Computer screens are landscape.
Books are portrait.
Scientific articles and text books are portrait and have columns.

With a hand held device and the right software you should be able to optimize a text for comprehension if you take under consideration the type of screen.

I'm assuming that the LCD that you mentioned didn't belong to a hand held device.

What you say may account for some of my problem, but I'm not convinced it accounts for all of it. You are right in your assumption about the LCD devices; they were computer monitors.

For a while, about ten years ago, I worked on a prototype for reading newspapers on computer monitors. The layout was exactly the same as for a paper newspaper, and there were various methods of zooming in (that was what our company specialized in). Anyway, even with panning and zooming on a fairly large CRT, I eventually noticed that I could read a column of text and then not really remember many of the details when I got to the end of it. My retention was far worse than when I read a physical newspaper. It didn't really matter what legible scale I had zoomed to. I found I had similar problems with reading complicated, technical specifications in PDF format on-screen, as opposed to the printed-out versions. Using LCD monitors later didn't seem to help.

This is speculation, but I get the feeling my brain is working behind the scenes on something, and it is taking resources away from reading comprehension. What it's working on, I have no idea. It might be, as you say, the brain struggling with fonts and layouts, but I used to read some pretty horrendous printed-out fonts and layouts in the pre-LaTeX days of scientific publishing (like in conference proceedings from the late eighties and early nineties), and I never noticed a problem then.

I would be interested to know if anyone has used an MRI to study people's brains while reading under different circumstances.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Salgueiros

Exactly. For reading, and reading only, eink is better.

For multitasking, other devices are better suited.

For reading, and reading only:

Advantages of E-ink:
- battery
- reading outside
- similar to paper

Advantages of LCD:
- color
- better contrast
- faster page turn

If you want all of the above, you are going to have to wait for a different technology.