Copyright vs. public library: the next big battleground?

[twobits]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Interestingly, I called Overdrive several times requesting info about this but have not been able to talk to anyone familiar with the financial arrangement. No return calls or emails.

Yeah, I saw another reginal coop that charges its towns based on their populations. I think the charge based on the size of the collection your librarian sees is based on the way the coop reprocesses the charges and not directly based on how Overdrive charges for everything. I do think Adobe and Overdrive are making a decent amount of money from ebook lending as well.

[twobits]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

that is so odd about not disclosing the costs for publicly owned and funded organizations. We, as citizens are entitled to know those costs and they are supposed to be a public record.

Reminds me of a line I saw in a show (fictional) where a fancy secret mililtary based was being show. Someone made a comment about this not showing up in the budget and the guide replied 'You don't really think we are buying $500 hammers do you?".

Pretty sure the NSA budget is still off the record even though it is no longer a complete secret. Large parts of the budget are hidden, or at least merged into very large more general categories. In the case of tax funded libraries, I imagine you could get it if you pressed hard enough (FOIA or some such maybe).

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by twobits

Reminds me of a line I saw in a show (fictional) where a fancy secret mililtary based was being show. Someone made a comment about this not showing up in the budget and the guide replied 'You don't really think we are buying $500 hammers do you?".

Pretty sure the NSA budget is still off the record even though it is no longer a complete secret. Large parts of the budget are hidden, or at least merged into very large more general categories. In the case of tax funded libraries, I imagine you could get it if you pressed hard enough (FOIA or some such maybe).

I think that line was from Independence Day....can't remember for sure but is might have been Judd Hirsch who said it.

Financial records of all publicly funded institutions are open to anyone who asks for them. And remember we are dealing with city, county or maybe even state institutions, not federal. And there would be no valid reason to deny the information. Not sure it's worth the hassle but if really interested all I would need to do is ask a buddy of mine's wife who was our mayor for about 10-12 yrs. Our last mayor I knew dropped deal a couple years ago out of the blue so he would be more difficult to ask. And I grew up with the kids of half the city counsel so it's not like it would be too hard to ask and get the details. It's one nice thing about small towns. We all know each other...hahahaha...but this sort of thing is not some sort of national security matter fer goodness sakes! And we are entitled to know how the funds are spent. I think we all just want to know how it works more than anything else.

I still think what needs done is to reinvent the whole library. Still keep the research aspect of it, but also open part of it into a more social environment where people can get together, maybe have some sort of small business coffer bar sort of thing (no Starbucks or what not, just a small town mom 'n pop sort of thing). A solid kids section is a must and regular reader clubs/groups. But that all takes money and, well, that's very difficult to obtain from cities these days, especially for something I am certain well over 50% of people have never used and really don't understand. But I sense it's time for the library to evolve, at least on the small town level.

[twobits]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

I think that line was from Independence Day....can't remember for sure but is might have been Judd Hirsch who said it.

Ah thanks, could not remember what it was off hand. Seems I got the amount way off as well not all the items!

From imdb

[at the secret government lab]
President Thomas Whitmore: I don't understand, where does all this come from? How do you get funding for something like this?
Julius Levinson: You don't actually think they spend $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat do you?

Financial records of all publicly funded institutions are open to anyone who asks for them. And remember we are dealing with city, county or maybe even state institutions, not federal. And there would be no valid reason to deny the information. Not sure it's worth the hassle but if really interested

Yep, just seems they don't have to be clear, and it can become too much of a hassle.

the details. It's one nice thing about small towns. We all know each other...hahahaha...but this sort of thing is not some sort of national security matter fer goodness sakes! And we are entitled to know how the funds are spent. I think we all just want to know how it works more than anything else.

Yep. I agree with your original statement that it seems odd that it that it seems to not be clearly disclosed.

I still think what needs done is to reinvent the whole library. Still keep the research aspect of it, but also open part of it into a more social environment where people can get together, maybe have some sort of small business coffer bar sort of thing (no Starbucks or what not, just a small town mom 'n pop sort of thing). A solid kids section is a must and regular reader clubs/groups. But that all takes money and, well, that's very difficult to obtain from cities these days, especially for something I am certain well over 50% of people have never used and really don't understand. But I sense it's time for the library to evolve, at least on the small town level.

Almost an internet cafe with special access to ebooks and other media resources while in the building? They could make an intranet available that had access to curated media for the kids use. Wonder if some community groups could lead the way rather then it needing to be city driven.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by twobits

Yeah, I saw another reginal coop that charges its towns based on their populations. I think the charge based on the size of the collection your librarian sees is based on the way the coop reprocesses the charges and not directly based on how Overdrive charges for everything. I do think Adobe and Overdrive are making a decent amount of money from ebook lending as well.

Absolutely.

And yet Macmillan and Simon & Schuster arent happy with the Overdrive system. They want more money. I believe Macmillan wanted to receive a fee per borrow which libraries oppose.

Libraries are good customers. With 17,000+ public libraries in the US an author can do reasonably well if each one purchased their hardcover. Add in all the education and corporate libraries plus e-books and you have significant sales. Also, add international sales to the total.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Fbone

And yet Macmillan and Simon & Schuster arent happy with the Overdrive system. They want more money. I believe Macmillan wanted to receive a fee per borrow which libraries oppose.

From the details of the US system which have been described so far, I'm not surprised, I wouldn't be happy either.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

The US is somewhat unusual in not paying authors when a book is borrowed from a library, most developed nations have some method of paying authors, either when a book is borrowed, or just for the library having it.

Well, yes and no. The majority of countries that pay authors for books checked out from the library only pay *that country's* authors for the books checked out. I.e., if you check out a book written by a Dane or Australian from a Danish or Australian library, respectively, the author will receive a small amount from the library. If you check out a book written by an American or German from one of these library, the foreign author will receive nothing.

So it's more of a subsidy for the national literature, and not really a method of reimbursing authors.

[cjottawa]

I've skimmed over most of this thread but one point jumped out that I wanted to respond to.

Originally Posted by emellaich

...Making it easier to loan/check out library books will have the consequence of damaging the commercial (Amazon, BNB, ...) marketplace...

I am about "56 of 75" patrons waiting for the .epub version of "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest" at my public library.

When I log in to Amazon.com, I see that book at $9.99.

I have enough reading to do that I'll wait a month or three for my number to come up at the library.

If I saw Amazon selling it for, say, $1.99, I'd buy it, no hesitation.

Publishers are likely causing the relatively high prices on ebooks and if they don't don't take a lesson from the music industry, they will become irrelevant. They can either have a little bit of something or a whole lot of nothing for all of me.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

I am about "56 of 75" patrons waiting for the .epub version of "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest" at my public library.

When I log in to Amazon.com, I see that book at $9.99.

I have enough reading to do that I'll wait a month or three for my number to come up at the library.

If I saw Amazon selling it for, say, $1.99, I'd buy it, no hesitation.

I think this time/money calculation is something that people make with library books all the time, regardless of whether the book is a paper book or an e-book

Publishers are likely causing the relatively high prices on ebooks and if they don't don't take a lesson from the music industry, they will become irrelevant. They can either have a little bit of something or a whole lot of nothing for all of me.

The music industry had a few problems with downloaded music, but their main problem was that they didn't provide a convenient and simple way for people to buy their music. It's pretty clear that book publishers *have* taken quite a few lessons from the music industry, as obtaining ebooks from - well, Amazon, at least - is much easier than getting music from iTunes. Not only can I get a book wirelessly, I can also get it over the 3G network...and having once purchased it, I can play it on many devices. It's also backed up automatically by Amazon, where I can redownload it for free.

I don't think that the prices you've quoted are out of line, either. Most albums from iTunes cost $9.99; that seems a pretty reasonable price for a popular novel in e-book form (which is probably why Amazon picked that price originally). While I'm sure that they would sell even more copies at $1.99, I don't particularly see why the cost of two singles from iTunes should be the right price for a popular novel.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

I am about "56 of 75" patrons waiting for the .epub version of "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest" at my public library.

Wow; move to my library district. Of the three libraries I primarily do business with, one has 25 on the waiting list, another has 20 on the list, and the third one has nobody on the list.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I think this time/money calculation is something that people make with library books all the time, regardless of whether the book is a paper book or an e-book.

True, but it is more convenient with the ebook loans.

If you are in the waiting queue for the pbook, you need to wait for the notification that it is available, then go to the library to pick it up.

A few clicks will retrieve the ebook from the library, once the notification e-mail arrives.

[Fat Abe]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

I am about "56 of 75" patrons waiting for the .epub version of "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest" at my public library.

I have enough reading to do that I'll wait a month or three for my number to come up at the library.

You'll have to wait more than a few months before getting an email that the book is available. Possibly a year. One of the only exceptions that will shorten the wait period is a patron who has the book on hold but does not respond during the 3-day notification period to check out the ebook. And after you have waited a year, guess what? You'll either have lost interest in the book or be on vacation when you get the notification. Sorry, to the end of the line. Certain libraries limit the size of a patron's hold list. That could be to your advantage if he/she has to delete a hold.

Now that we gotten several pages deep into this thread, is there someone who can reliably answer a few questions that have been alluded to earlier?

1. What does a library pay to Overdrive for the initial cost and recurring lending cost of an ebook?

2. At what point does the net cost exceed the cost of a pbook of the same title? Would a library stop lending after this cost has been exceeded?

3. Some have hinted that the annual recurring cost of an ebook is capped. But if an ebook is borrowed by 12 patrons a year vs. 50 patrons a year, then is this really true? What if there is a hidden gatekeeper that restricts the number of times a book is borrowed to, say, 26 lending periods a year?

I realize that there are bean counters out there who can tell me the cost of a librarian checking out a pbook, and re-shelving it. But that librarian is usually an overhead cost, and unless it can be demonstrated that he/she can be eliminated from the payroll, the cost savings are nil. Ah, but what if the city or state decided to eliminate an entire physical library and go all-electronic, doing away with employees, electricity, heating and maintenance bills? Hmm.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

I am about "56 of 75" patrons waiting for the .epub version of "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest" at my public library.

When I log in to Amazon.com, I see that book at $9.99.

I have enough reading to do that I'll wait a month or three for my number to come up at the library.

If I saw Amazon selling it for, say, $1.99, I'd buy it, no hesitation.

Amazon UK sell it for £2.68 ($4.20). For me, that is very much an "impulse buy" price.

[cjottawa]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

You'll have to wait more than a few months before getting an email that the book is available. Possibly a year. One of the only exceptions that will shorten the wait period is a patron who has the book on hold but does not respond during the 3-day notification period to check out the ebook...

One of the other exceptions:

Libraries that have multiple "copies" (licences) for a ebook.

My library has a dozen+ copies of each of the Stieg Larsson books so a month or three is a reasonable estimate of wait time.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Amazon UK sell it for £2.68 ($4.20). For me, that is very much an "impulse buy" price.

At $4 and change, yes, I'd call that reasonable.

[Kali Yuga]

For what it's worth, I don't really see ebooks as nearly as big a threat to libraries as the oncoming "Age of Austerity." If government funding was not as big an issue as it is now, libraries would have a much easier time handling the transition to a digital era.

At any rate, copyright and libraries are clearly not in conflict, as demonstrated by the existing services. The same goes for paid rental services, which would have the exact same legal standing as, say, renting a DVD or a video game.


As to Overdrive: When a library uses Overdrive, the library is NOT licensing or purchasing books. What they're doing, basically, is paying to be a front-end for the national Overdrive service.

Overdrive will set up and customize a website for the local library, including checkout durations and book selections. Overdrive then apparently bills the local library for what local patrons use. I don't know how the "waiting list" works, but I'd presume the library can modify how many copies of a specific book they can loan. Overdrive may also set its own limits.

It may be possible for Overdrive at some point to offer some kind of "national rental service" direct to the public, though I assume this depends on the arrangements they have with the publishers. However, I don't think that some type of "Federal Digital Library" as a non-profit makes a lot of sense, especially since it disrupts the local character and involvement of public libraries (and since almost no one will agree to pay for it )).