Book Page Numbers

kevinofengland · 10-23-2010, 08:11 PM

On my old 505 I could see what page in the book I was on. However, on the K3 its got % locations and then a five digit number on the right hand side, what does it all mean? I would prefer just a page number.

thanks

Kev

kevinp · 10-23-2010, 08:55 PM

Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page.
Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise.
Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it:

http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/pag...ion-on-kindle/

TomF · 10-24-2010, 12:24 AM

Here we go again...

kajoob · 10-24-2010, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomF

Here we go again...

And for good reason

TomF · 10-24-2010, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajoob

And for good reason

There aren't already enough threads about this? We need another one? What's the good reason? Search doesn't work?

karthwyne · 10-24-2010, 05:45 PM

I can't think of any good reason to have another thread about this.

It's called adapt. Pages on an ereader is just not practical.

kevinofengland · 10-24-2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinp

Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page.
Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise.
Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it:

http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/pag...ion-on-kindle/

Thanks for your constructive answer.

Kev

JSWolf · 10-24-2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinofengland

On my old 505 I could see what page in the book I was on. However, on the K3 its got % locations and then a five digit number on the right hand side, what does it all mean? I would prefer just a page number.

thanks

Kev

If you really want page numbers, then a Kindle is not for you. Get a 650 instead., It has page number and not locations.

JSWolf · 10-24-2010, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinp

Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page.
Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise.
Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it:

http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/pag...ion-on-kindle/

You can change the font size using ADE and you still get page numbers. So don't blame it on being able to change the font size. Blame it on a bug in Mobipocket Reader that's been there for as long as the format has existed.

JSWolf · 10-24-2010, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomF

Here we go again...

We get people saying they really want this or they need that. The problem is that the features that a lot of people say they want or need exist in readers other then the K3. So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

Piper_ · 10-24-2010, 08:19 PM

I don't think such a widespread customer complaint should be so easily dismissed with the common Kindler response of "you just need to adapt."

It isn't as if Kindle's locations are the future for everyone, unless you believe all other e-readers and formats have no future.

Locations can't be standardized, because they won't match across formats, or even between Amazon editions, and the algorithm is flawed out of the gate for the intended purposes, because it counts code as well as what the readers sees, and what the reader sees is what matters.

In terms of usability, I very rarely see complaints about other e-reader's paging systems, and those have to do with a certain type of Sony that put page numbers in the margin.

On the other hand, complaints about Kindle's locations are so common, we're exhausted with them.

A survey taken at an e-book consortium showed that maintaining page numbers was #6 of 36 feature requests for e-readers to have.

So it doesn't take a decade as a usability guru to recognize that it isn't just a matter of people on the fringe who just won't "adapt."

All that said, the real question -- and answer - is how can we meet customer's needs in a way that that can be standardized and grow with more and widespread use and more sophisticated formatting?

Not everyone has the same needs:

Some would be happy enough with a screen count that is recalculated according to font size, etc.
e.g., Page 350/735, with 1 page = 1 screen.
Others would be happy if the pages were drawn and delimited according to a standard ebook "page" size.
Page 350.3/735, with 1 page often = to more than one screen.
Others need delimited pages for citations their professors can check without access to the .azw file. I have read that at least one group requires that they match an accessible paper version for academic purposes.
Then there is the section: paragraph option, which would be most reliable, but more of a hurdle to implement.

I don't know what the ultimate solution will be. I think the section

aragraph option would be most reliable, but I expect some sort of paging option to come eventually.

My reason? Amazon put forth pilot programs in schools to get user feedback, and at the shareholder's meeting in May, Jeff Bezos said:

"The concept of a page number becomes more complex with font changes. But for academic purposes, you often have to be able to cite a page number. We provide a citation method, it's called location numbers, but unfortunately it's not a universal standard.

For academic purposes you need some way of translating location numbers to physical book page numbers."

- Jeff Bezos

To me, that sounds like they're looking for a solution in that direction.

But who knows.

Piper_ · 10-24-2010, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You can change the font size using ADE and you still get page numbers. So don't blame it on being able to change the font size. Blame it on a bug in Mobipocket Reader that's been there for as long as the format has existed.

I thought that bug only affected its ability to reliably calculate screen counts on the fly. ?

If the pages are encoded in the file, that shouldn't be a problem.

Anyhow, it looks like Amazon is interested in finding a way. I'd guess they could fix the bug, if needed for whichever method they chose to implement.

Piper_ · 10-24-2010, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

I bought a Kindle because I need the TTS, and in my decision-matrix, Locations were the only thing I liked better on the other brands.

No e-reader is perfect. Most companies add and improve features, as has Amazon, thanks in part to user-feedback, which they solicit.

I'm patient.

Regarding ADE, I read that their method of delimiting pages is now known and could be freely and painlessly implemented in .mobi. ?

It sounds too good to be true, but I've been out of touch and don't know. If anyone does know for sure, I'd love to hear the details.

Xanthe · 10-24-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We get people saying they really want this or they need that. The problem is that the features that a lot of people say they want or need exist in readers other then the K3. So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

Just reading through this thread out of curiosity because I'm not a Kindle owner, but I'd just like to point out the fact that the majority of people new to ereaders don't even know what ADE stands for, much less what it can or can't do. Just like most advertisements for ereaders don't really give the customer information about the nuts-and-bolts of the reader - what it really can or can't do. Take my Sony, for example; I didn't know that there is no way to turn off the dictionary function or to change the font. Page numbering methods are never mentioned in the "Tech Specs" provided on the ereader's web page - or even on the ereader box itself.

Remember too, that Kindle and Sony readers don't share the same native format. So when faced with a different reading experience, we try to adjust the new reader to the settings that we are familiar with and used to. For example, I'm used to the Bookmark function on the Aluratek, where a bookmark is called a bookmark. On the Sony, you can "Bookmark" a page, but when you want to find those bookmarks, you have to look in the "Notes" section, the same place where highlighted sentences wind up. Why the change in terminology mid-stream? Who knows?

The fact that people are turning to this website with what seem to be simple and repetitive questions shouldn't be discouraged, nor should people be told to return their Kindle and get something else just because they happen to ask a question others find annoying. I'm a regular on a computer forum and I just wish that I had a dollar for every post about "what anti-virus program should I use?" - lol. But I remember when I was new to computers and new to different operating systems, and how I appreciated it when more knowledgeable people took the time to answer my - to them - obvious questions.

FF2 · 10-24-2010, 10:31 PM

I just got the K3. I'm sure this has been discussed and is sought of touched on where Bezos is quoted about academic needs for paging. I mentioned this page/location to a friend who is active in book clubs - she wanted to know how you could discuss a quote from a page in a book with other members if you were using a kindle while they were using a pbook? At least, with the pbook, they could give you a snatch of a phrase and you could search for it but not the other way around. Seems that while Amazon and others might justify - that's the way it is due to font selection or line spacing - that does not meet the needs or desires of some/many/ readers.

And like others, I've taken part in support forums for other devices and the same questions get asked over and over. (you cannot imagine how many people wanted to know why Blackberries did not adjust for timezone changes - irritatingly repeated and always with the response/justification that it is a planned function that worked well and was unnecessary to change - you know what - Rim/Blackberry finally came around - you can have it your way - it is now an option). Maybe with enough repetitious questions Amazon might provide an option, too. If everyone just searches and sees that's the way it is, the head count never increases with dissent.

And while there is a search function in most forums (where no page reference is available (g)), I still think it is polite to answer the question and then send the person searching.

10-23-2010, 08:11 PM	#1
kevinofengland Connoisseur Posts: 52 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: England Device: Sony Reader 505	Book Page Numbers On my old 505 I could see what page in the book I was on. However, on the K3 its got % locations and then a five digit number on the right hand side, what does it all mean? I would prefer just a page number. thanks Kev

10-24-2010, 08:19 PM	#11
Piper_ ~~~~~ Posts: 761 Karma: 1278391 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: USA Device: Kindle 3, Sony 350	I don't think such a widespread customer complaint should be so easily dismissed with the common Kindler response of "you just need to adapt." It isn't as if Kindle's locations are the future for everyone, unless you believe all other e-readers and formats have no future. Locations can't be standardized, because they won't match across formats, or even between Amazon editions, and the algorithm is flawed out of the gate for the intended purposes, because it counts code as well as what the readers sees, and what the reader sees is what matters. In terms of usability, I very rarely see complaints about other e-reader's paging systems, and those have to do with a certain type of Sony that put page numbers in the margin. On the other hand, complaints about Kindle's locations are so common, we're exhausted with them. A survey taken at an e-book consortium showed that maintaining page numbers was #6 of 36 feature requests for e-readers to have. So it doesn't take a decade as a usability guru to recognize that it isn't just a matter of people on the fringe who just won't "adapt." All that said, the real question -- and answer - is how can we meet customer's needs in a way that that can be standardized and grow with more and widespread use and more sophisticated formatting? Not everyone has the same needs: Some would be happy enough with a screen count that is recalculated according to font size, etc. e.g., Page 350/735, with 1 page = 1 screen. Others would be happy if the pages were drawn and delimited according to a standard ebook "page" size. Page 350.3/735, with 1 page often = to more than one screen. Others need delimited pages for citations their professors can check without access to the .azw file. I have read that at least one group requires that they match an accessible paper version for academic purposes. Then there is the section: paragraph option, which would be most reliable, but more of a hurdle to implement. I don't know what the ultimate solution will be. I think the sectionaragraph option would be most reliable, but I expect some sort of paging option to come eventually. My reason? Amazon put forth pilot programs in schools to get user feedback, and at the shareholder's meeting in May, Jeff Bezos said: "The concept of a page number becomes more complex with font changes. But for academic purposes, you often have to be able to cite a page number. We provide a citation method, it's called location numbers, but unfortunately it's not a universal standard. For academic purposes you need some way of translating location numbers to physical book page numbers." - Jeff Bezos To me, that sounds like they're looking for a solution in that direction. But who knows. Last edited by Piper_; 10-24-2010 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Fixed formatting, and killed that rogue smiley in section:paragraph ;)

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10-23-2010, 08:55 PM	#2
kevinp Fanatic Posts: 583 Karma: 3549018 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Michigan Device: Kindle Scribe, Kindle PW (10th & 11th gen); Fire HD 10	Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page. Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise. Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it: http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/pag...ion-on-kindle/

10-24-2010, 12:24 AM	#3
TomF Kindle Enthusiast Posts: 243 Karma: 1818 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Diego, CA Device: Kindle 3G Graphite, Kindle Fire	Here we go again...

10-24-2010, 05:45 PM	#6
karthwyne Connoisseur Posts: 59 Karma: 480 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Atlanta, GA Device: Kindle Wifi, Kindle US	I can't think of any good reason to have another thread about this. It's called adapt. Pages on an ereader is just not practical.

10-24-2010, 10:31 PM	#15
FF2 Wizard Posts: 1,105 Karma: 1025784 Join Date: Oct 2010 Device: WiFi Kindle3	I just got the K3. I'm sure this has been discussed and is sought of touched on where Bezos is quoted about academic needs for paging. I mentioned this page/location to a friend who is active in book clubs - she wanted to know how you could discuss a quote from a page in a book with other members if you were using a kindle while they were using a pbook? At least, with the pbook, they could give you a snatch of a phrase and you could search for it but not the other way around. Seems that while Amazon and others might justify - that's the way it is due to font selection or line spacing - that does not meet the needs or desires of some/many/ readers. And like others, I've taken part in support forums for other devices and the same questions get asked over and over. (you cannot imagine how many people wanted to know why Blackberries did not adjust for timezone changes - irritatingly repeated and always with the response/justification that it is a planned function that worked well and was unnecessary to change - you know what - Rim/Blackberry finally came around - you can have it your way - it is now an option). Maybe with enough repetitious questions Amazon might provide an option, too. If everyone just searches and sees that's the way it is, the head count never increases with dissent. And while there is a search function in most forums (where no page reference is available (g)), I still think it is polite to answer the question and then send the person searching.