Excessive profanity in books - Page 5

RDaneel54 · 10-24-2010, 02:24 PM

I don't like profanity in books, but I have no problem with those who do. To each his own.

For those of us in the U.S, our Constitution confirms the right of free speech. Speech is only free if all types of speech are allowed, primarily and notably the offensive. My political opinions offend others, my religious views offend others, my use of language offends others. To pretend that we can communicate without offending someone is not realistic.

Sorry about that.

Dean

SameOldStory · 10-24-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seanette

As repugnant as I find all the cited positions, the US Constitution prohibits government from silencing unpopular speech. Otherwise, you get into certain opinions being criminalized ("hate speech" laws), creating "crimethink".

Far as I can tell, a free society will not stay that way if opinions can be punished by law. Inciting violence or harassment are legally actionable, and should be, since those acts infringe on the rights of others.

Would you rather have a "free speech for me, but not for thee" scenario in which only certain views are legal to express, and a shift in political climate could easily render your beliefs crimes?

What you, and others, are ignoring is not the "speech", but the venue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

So the question is still "Does freedom of speech trump all other considerations?"

I'm not talking about the repression of speech. And I'm not talking about the right to scream FIRE in a crowded theater.

I'm talking about the lack of tact....

Tact
"consideration in dealing with others and avoiding giving offense"

Unfortunately there are some that seek out every opportunity to offend.

TGS · 10-24-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Actually, I am on topic.

Nihilism - Philosophy
a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.
b. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated."

If one holds that "all values are baseless" then profanity, vulgarity, and offensive language of all sorts are perfectly OK to use in any place or situation.

On topic yes, but committing the logical fallacy equivalent to asserting that because all cows are animals all animals must therefore be cows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

As I keep asking "Does freedom of speech trump all other considerations?" It seems that there are those saying that it does. That the language you use is acceptable because you want to use it.

I don't know, does it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Obviously I have offended some. But isn't that my right? I don't think so. But only by offending you, will you perhaps understand that others may be offended too.

I am curious to know who you think you have offended and why you think it matters

Rumpelteazer · 10-24-2010, 02:54 PM

I don't have a problem with profanities in books but, as others have said, it has to have a function. Same goes for film, tv and stand-up comedy; I have no problem with Billy Connelly, who seems to use three profanities in every sentence he speaks. But many comedians, and some books, film and tv-series try to use profanities to either shock the audience or think it is a way to become popular (unfortunately it often does).

I can't remember any book I've read had an excessive amount of profanty, though I expect Fight Club and a couple of others I've read must have a reasonable number of swear words but not in a context that has bothered me enough to remember it.

Somehow when reading this tread I had to think of the beginning of Four Weddings and a Funeral (no I wasn't bothered by it).

primetime34 · 10-24-2010, 03:11 PM

Wouldn't it be nice if there was something similiar to imdb's parent guide for books? Where it doesn't "rate" the book (those are way too subjective anyway) but instead an outline of what was contained in the book that is generally considered objectionable? I prefer not to read any swearing and wish I knew some way to know if I a book I was going to buy would have multiple uses of swearing or explicit sexual dialogue or scenes. However, it doesn't seem there is any way to know...

TGS · 10-24-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primetime34

Wouldn't it be nice if there was something similiar to imdb's parent guide for books? Where it doesn't "rate" the book (those are way too subjective anyway) but instead an outline of what was contained in the book that is generally considered objectionable? I prefer not to read any swearing and wish I knew some way to know if I a book I was going to buy would have multiple uses of swearing or explicit sexual dialogue or scenes. However, it doesn't seem there is any way to know...

What an incredibly sensible suggestion!

JLeighs · 10-24-2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primetime34

Wouldn't it be nice if there was something similiar to imdb's parent guide for books? Where it doesn't "rate" the book (those are way too subjective anyway) but instead an outline of what was contained in the book that is generally considered objectionable? I prefer not to read any swearing and wish I knew some way to know if I a book I was going to buy would have multiple uses of swearing or explicit sexual dialogue or scenes. However, it doesn't seem there is any way to know...

Yes, that would be really, really nice!

SameOldStory · 10-24-2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGS

I am curious to know who you think you have offended and why you think it matters

I know that it's very strange to think that I would offend someone. But if you live long enough you'll see everything.

Jakie · 10-24-2010, 04:00 PM

The idea that something is offensive, and possibly should be limited because of it, puts us on that slippery slope of political correctness that ends up eliminating any contrary thought. The liberal arts education of the 1960s and 1970s gave rise to populist movements such as the anti Viet Nam demonstrations. Fast forward to the late 1990s where students are ostracized and failed when they have opposing views....not illogical, just opposing. To get back to profanity. Catcher in the Rye was considered a book to be banned. Today it seems very tame. Still worthy, but tame. Who was it who stated that they may not agree with what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it? (Not an American, so I may misquote here.)

John

Connallmac · 10-24-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

And heaven forbid (pun intended) mentioning religion in front of an atheist! It's like waving a red flag in front of an irritated bull. They literally can't control themselves. They just have to attack. To them the word God is THE most offensive profanity around and they'll go to any length to stamp it out or drive the offender away.

As an atheist I'm not offended by the discussion of religion, any more than I would be offended by someone discussing their under water macrame project or their advanced grapefruit cutting course*, your silly hobbies are your own business. My problem lies with those want to insert their church into our state.

*With all apologies to scuba diving weavers and citrus topiarists, your hobbies are no sillier than my backpacking or puttering about with archaic pen technology.

mr ploppy · 10-24-2010, 04:12 PM

I just did a word count on my work in progress. Total words 26,753. F-word count 79. C-word count 39. Would that count as excessive?

Bilbo1967 · 10-24-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I just did a word count on my work in progress. Total words 26,753. F-word count 79. C-word count 39. Would that count as excessive?

Depends on the nature of the book.

If it's a gritty realistic drama set against the backdrop of an inner-city gang culture, then it's probably about right.

If it's a children's book called "Lily's Beautiful Pony" aimed at pre-school children, then you may want to think again.

Sparrow · 10-24-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

And heaven forbid (pun intended) mentioning religion in front of an atheist! It's like waving a red flag in front of an irritated bull. They literally can't control themselves. They just have to attack. To them the word God is THE most offensive profanity around and they'll go to any length to stamp it out or drive the offender away.

Lady Fitzgerald · 10-24-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakie

The idea that something is offensive, and possibly should be limited because of it, puts us on that slippery slope of political correctness that ends up eliminating any contrary thought. The liberal arts education of the 1960s and 1970s gave rise to populist movements such as the anti Viet Nam demonstrations. Fast forward to the late 1990s where students are ostracized and failed when they have opposing views....not illogical, just opposing. To get back to profanity. Catcher in the Rye was considered a book to be banned. Today it seems very tame. Still worthy, but tame. Who was it who stated that they may not agree with what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it? (Not an American, so I may misquote here.)

John

Most people think it was Voltaire but it actually was E. B. Hall.

Lady Fitzgerald · 10-24-2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connallmac

As an atheist I'm not offended by the discussion of religion, any more than I would be offended by someone discussing their under water macrame project or their advanced grapefruit cutting course*, your silly hobbies are your own business. My problem lies with those want to insert their church into our state.

*With all apologies to scuba diving weavers and citrus topiarists, your hobbies are no sillier than my backpacking or puttering about with archaic pen technology.

Curious. I am a Fundamentalist Christian (just don't lump me in with the hateful, narrow minded, Bible thumping ones in the news) and I have the same "problem."

10-24-2010, 02:54 PM	#64
Rumpelteazer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,396 Karma: 27919658 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Utrecht, the Netherlands Device: Kindle Paperwhite Signature Edition	I don't have a problem with profanities in books but, as others have said, it has to have a function. Same goes for film, tv and stand-up comedy; I have no problem with Billy Connelly, who seems to use three profanities in every sentence he speaks. But many comedians, and some books, film and tv-series try to use profanities to either shock the audience or think it is a way to become popular (unfortunately it often does). I can't remember any book I've read had an excessive amount of profanty, though I expect Fight Club and a couple of others I've read must have a reasonable number of swear words but not in a context that has bothered me enough to remember it. Somehow when reading this tread I had to think of the beginning of Four Weddings and a Funeral (no I wasn't bothered by it). Last edited by Rumpelteazer; 10-24-2010 at 02:56 PM. Reason: typo

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10-24-2010, 02:24 PM	#61
RDaneel54 Aging Positronic Brain Posts: 633 Karma: 2155452 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Aurora (when off-Earth) Device: Amazon Oasis; iPhone, iPad Mini	I don't like profanity in books, but I have no problem with those who do. To each his own. For those of us in the U.S, our Constitution confirms the right of free speech. Speech is only free if all types of speech are allowed, primarily and notably the offensive. My political opinions offend others, my religious views offend others, my use of language offends others. To pretend that we can communicate without offending someone is not realistic. Sorry about that. Dean

10-24-2010, 03:11 PM	#65
primetime34 Zealot Posts: 124 Karma: 1142 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: Kindle 3, Nook 3G	Wouldn't it be nice if there was something similiar to imdb's parent guide for books? Where it doesn't "rate" the book (those are way too subjective anyway) but instead an outline of what was contained in the book that is generally considered objectionable? I prefer not to read any swearing and wish I knew some way to know if I a book I was going to buy would have multiple uses of swearing or explicit sexual dialogue or scenes. However, it doesn't seem there is any way to know...

10-24-2010, 04:00 PM	#69
Jakie Connoisseur Posts: 52 Karma: 225544 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Keremeos BC Device: Kindle PW5, Kobo Libre2	The idea that something is offensive, and possibly should be limited because of it, puts us on that slippery slope of political correctness that ends up eliminating any contrary thought. The liberal arts education of the 1960s and 1970s gave rise to populist movements such as the anti Viet Nam demonstrations. Fast forward to the late 1990s where students are ostracized and failed when they have opposing views....not illogical, just opposing. To get back to profanity. Catcher in the Rye was considered a book to be banned. Today it seems very tame. Still worthy, but tame. Who was it who stated that they may not agree with what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it? (Not an American, so I may misquote here.) John

10-24-2010, 04:12 PM	#71
mr ploppy Feral Underclass Posts: 3,622 Karma: 26821535 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yorkshire, tha noz Device: 2nd hand paperback	I just did a word count on my work in progress. Total words 26,753. F-word count 79. C-word count 39. Would that count as excessive?