Massive wave of ebook piracy?

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You're missing the point, we're talking about what causes piracy, not something else. He said it was due to DRM and geo restrictions then he went on to say other things that were unrelated to what is actually happening.

You can't make up fantasy situations or solutions based on incorrect assumptions about what is really happening.

Kenny, it's very hard to miss that he said nothing about publishers' rights or anything giving anyone the right to steal from them as you accused him of doing. It wasn't fair.

Maybe it's hard sometimes, after reading others rationalize, but it would be good, I think, if we could just try to take people's words at face value and work positively instead of reading things into them that aren't always there.

Demonizing reasonable commentaries will only lose credibility and the whole battle.

[Falcao]

Amazing, last 2 pages are like watching two deaf peoples talking.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by sabredog

The two groups on either side of the argument do not want change. Regimented in their thinking, they are happy with their point of view and are more than keen to tear down the opposing side and the middle roaders. Currently though, the middle roaders are the ones offering ideas to facilitate change.

After all, reducing piracy by freeing up imposts that contribute to piracy is the best way forward? Apparently not, according to some.

Yeah. And I guess it's common for controversial subjects to self-select until only the extremes who enjoy fussing more than solving are left on the field.

Everyone else leaves them to it and tucks in with a good book instead.

Everybody be good, be nice, and have a good night.

[Sil_liS]

I pirate mostly tv shows. The ones that I can view online, I usually view online, unless they take too long to load. I used to also pirate music, but, honestly, with youtube I don't need to. I don't have a dedicated mp3 player, but I could use my phone. I still buy CDs on impulse, but not very often, and it's usually classical music. As I recall I started to pirate music because if I would listen to a CD too often, it would become scratched and stop working, and not because of the price.

With books it's different. I want to own books, and end up with a house filled with books, like my parents and my grandparents. I think that ebooks just wouldn't have the same feeling. And, of course it's also the shopping experience. Looking at a list of books online doesn't make me want to buy them, while in a book shop I buy on impulse.
The reason why I'm becoming interested in ebooks is because pbooks might become a thing of the past, since if the number of books that are printed decreases, their price will increase, which means that less would be bought, which means less will be printed etc.
And I can see that already. I've been living in the Netherlands for the past two years and I buy books in english, which are printed in the UK. Two years ago, PB books were between 7-10€, now they are 10-13€. A couple of weeks ago I bought a series of 3 books, the first one was printed in 2008 and I paid 9.95€, the next two were printed in 2010 and I paid 11.75€ each. If ebooks follow the same trend, that just means that they will also become more and more expensive.
Now don't get me wrong, I love the books, and I think that they are worth the price, but if there are not enough people that think the same way, it's not going to be worth it for the shops to bring the books in the first place, and I don't see here any ebooks being sold in brick stores yet. And if that happens, guess where I will get my books?

I see in this thread that many think that the solution is for the authors to self publish: the books will be cheaper and anybody in the world could get them. The problem that I see with this is that I don't think that they are going to get them translated to other languages. English isn't my first language, not even my first foreign language. I prefer to read books in english because I like to read in the original language.

[AlbertaCowboy]

Okay. Deep breath. Is there any real point in continuing this thread? Shut 'er down. I'm sure we can all start sniping at each other over wifi vs. touchscreen or something. This thread is a carbon copy of a billion previous threads complete with exactly the same players. Let it go. Another will rear it's ugly head soon enough.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Well it's not. You said that the problem was due to DRM and geo restrictions.

Then you said something else.

You were wrong. The seller has the right to put drm on or restrict who they sell to. That gives no one the right to steal from them.

End of story.

But it does give them the motive to perform a copyright violation. Which seems to be his point. If you take away the motive to violate copyright you will reduce the volume of copyright violations. Makes sense to me, and judging by the recent jump in music industry profits it seems to have worked for them.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

But it does give them the motive to perform a copyright violation. Which seems to be his point. If you take away the motive to violate copyright you will reduce the volume of copyright violations. Makes sense to me, and judging by the recent jump in music industry profits it seems to have worked for them.

I'm not disagreeing with that actually. But the dog jumped on me about "it's the medical/pill approach" which clearly indicated he was not even following along.

I'm not going to repeat it all again, it's there to read.

Oh and Piper. It this has EVERYTHING to do with rights. The rights of the one who creates the work and the rights of the publisher. The consumer has some rights but not to demand the things you and dog seems to be claiming.

The product belongs to the publisher. They get to decide what to offer to the consumer. If the consumer doesn't like the terms they can choose to go elsewhere, but that does not give them the right to break the law.

See how it really is all about rights? Copyrights and other rights.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I'm not disagreeing with that actually. But the dog jumped on me about "it's the medical/pill approach" which clearly indicated he was not even following along.

I'm not going to repeat it all again, it's there to read.

Oh it is, it is. Several times you were called out for being wrong. Clearly you cannot accept that. The dog? Next time please refrain from calling me a dog.

Oh and Piper. It this has EVERYTHING to do with rights. The rights of the one who creates the work and the rights of the publisher. The consumer has some rights but not to demand the things you and dog seems to be claiming.

The product belongs to the publisher. They get to decide what to offer to the consumer. If the consumer doesn't like the terms they can choose to go elsewhere, but that does not give them the right to break the law.

See how it really is all about rights? Copyrights and other rights.

You have no ideas of how to solve the issue do you? Rather, you go on the offensive deriding other peoples opinions and possible solutions as they see them.

Do you have any ideas to offer or will you continue to deride other members?

I believe you will find that everyone knows about the current state of play which is plainly NOT WORKING. Ebook readers want to buy their ebooks but according to you they should not wish for anything better, anything that might allow them to purchase the last few ebooks in a series that are suddenly restricted to those who reside in a certain location. Geographic restrictions. Take a look at the Deals, Freebies, and Resources forum. Plenty of free books but, wait for the sting, all geographically restricted.

Thank God for Smashwords, Baen and other forward thinking ebook publishers who are prepared to meet with their customers part way instead of treating them with disdain.

I am not going to repeat what I reckon is a possible solution to reducing piracy because you are so blinded, so entrenched by your beliefs that you tolerate no other opinion bar your own.

Meanwhile the band plays on and nothing at all is resolved.

[kennyc]

You still don't get it do you. Oh well. You just want to argue. You think you know the answer, but until you understand the issue there is no solution.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Well it's not. You said that the problem was due to DRM and geo restrictions.

Then you said something else.

You were wrong. The seller has the right to put drm on or restrict who they sell to. That gives no one the right to steal from them.

End of story.

The seller has the right to not sell it, to put whatever restrictions they want on it and to price it however they want. They have the right to not care about customer satisfaction. No argument from me. If they enforce those rights then they have nobody to blame but themselves for lost sales.

If they don't make it available, if they price it too high, if they put too many restrictions on it then some people won't buy it. If the consumer is not satisfied with the purchase they are less likely to buy it the next time. If people don't buy it doesn't matter to me what they do beyond that point, you didn't come to agreement and you won't get their money.

I don't know why it matters so much to you what moral decision they made. Why does it matter if they bought something else, if they borrowed the book from the library, if they borrowed a paper copy from a friend or they download a copy from the internet. People are going to make moral decisions that you or I don't agree with.

You might not like that they have the option of just taking it but that's the new reality and it's not going to change. There are things you can do something about and there are thing you can't. What sabredog was arguing was the publishers should worry about the things they can change and not the things they can't. It's not the publishers fault that "piracy" exists but they can make decisions that minimize the impact.

[kennyc]

Barcy, I agree, but please note how this whole interaction started. I stated:

"The issue is that many don't see piracy as a problem or it would stop."

and got told that was a "medical solution" wtf is that supposed to mean. I didn't state a solution at all, just a statement of fact.

This statement is precisely at the core of my issue with piracy. The pirates see nothing wrong with what they are doing and to me that is abominable. Morals of the people in my society are important to me because we are all in this together. Morals and ethics make up the society in which we live. If there is no regard for law in this respect (piracy) there is little regard for it in other respects. That's why it matters. It affects all of us.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by kennyc

...This statement is precisely at the core of my issue with piracy. The pirates see nothing wrong with what they are doing and to me that is abominable. Morals of the people in my society are important to me because we are all in this together. Morals and ethics make up the society in which we live. If there is no regard for law in this respect (piracy) there is little regard for it in other respects. That's why it matters. It affects all of us.

This lad states it well.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I'm not disagreeing with that actually. But the dog jumped on me about "it's the medical/pill approach" which clearly indicated he was not even following along.

I'm not going to repeat it all again, it's there to read.

Oh and Piper. It this has EVERYTHING to do with rights. The rights of the one who creates the work and the rights of the publisher. The consumer has some rights but not to demand the things you and dog seems to be claiming.

The product belongs to the publisher. They get to decide what to offer to the consumer. If the consumer doesn't like the terms they can choose to go elsewhere, but that does not give them the right to break the law.

See how it really is all about rights? Copyrights and other rights.

Sorry, I assumed this one was about strategies to cut down on copyright infringement, and removing barriers between buyers and sellers is really the most obvious way to do it. It would be pointless arguing about whether something is "right" or "wrong" when it just "is". It would be like arguing about whether people should drive cars or not without doing anything to cut down on car use.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Barcy, I agree, but please note how this whole interaction started. I stated:

"The issue is that many don't see piracy as a problem or it would stop."

One person's problem is another person's opportunity. With books, writers have a lot more to gain from copyright violation than they have to lose. The situation might be different for publishers, but I really couldn't care less about them.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

One person's problem is another person's opportunity. With books, writers have a lot more to gain from copyright violation than they have to lose...

More rationalization.