Why don't people use professional copy editors?

[DavidRM]

My first experience with a copy editor was a nightmare. I had a 400-ish page nonfiction book published in 2003. The copy editor went through the book and did something (usually pointless) to every sentence in the book. EVERY SENTENCE. And more than once she completely hammered paragraphs by rearranging sentences and making the text unreadable and meaningless. That week spent staring at bleeding red pages of MS Word "changes" is my single most unpleasant experience in writing. 7 years later, it STILL pisses me off just to think about it.

I'm not saying this will happen to anyone else. I'm sure mine was an isolated experience.

I did learn from the experience. I made sure on my next book that I wouldn't be assigned the same copy editor.

-David

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by DavidRM

My first experience with a copy editor ... went through the book and did something (usually pointless) to every sentence in the book. EVERY SENTENCE. And more than once she completely hammered paragraphs by rearranging sentences and making the text unreadable and meaningless ... not saying this will happen to anyone else. I'm sure mine was an isolated experience.

Think again. My first editor was the same. I felt like, "Hey, if you want to WRITE a book, write your own."

I don't mind lots of red marks that are errors or suggestions that I need to fix, but like you, David, and I imagine many others, I do not care for someone who simply changes things for the sake of changing things. And like your experience, the trash that was going to replace my apparently shaky prose (perhaps not stellar but at least comprehensible) was some kind of gibberish that made no sense at all. I'm not kidding. Sentences were like riddles, I guess that's "artistic." Some sort of flowery purple prose. YIKES! I was appalled.

I ditched that editor and soon found the jewel of an editor who I will use for the rest of my life. She's tough, and makes plenty of suggestions (usually good ones), but she keeps to writing her own books, not mine for me.

[Marc Johnson]

To those with bad experiences with editors, I'm curious as to how you chose yours. I narrowed it to about 3 or 4 who I thought could not only do a good job but would be good to work with. I love the one I'm working with now and am glad I picked her but if I didn't, I could see it working well with one of the others.

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by Marc Johnson

To those with bad experiences with editors, I'm curious as to how you chose yours.

After my nightmare experience, I asked for sample edits, meaning I send 3 pages and they mark them up, no further obligation for either of us. That told me all I needed to know. For my current editor, when her 3 pages came back, it was a no-brainer. In fact, it was almost magical. She "gets" me, and what I'm trying to say, which makes some of her suggestions like "wow, why didn't I think of that?" A great working relationship.

Just like readers get samples of e-books (or browse the printed editions in a store), it's the way to go -- get a sample from prospective editors. There are great editors out there. There are also awful ones (who often times think they are great, oh boy... some people just don't understand the difference between an academic thesis and writing fiction).

[WPotocki]

I don't think it boils down to one neat reason. Cost certainly is a consideration, but not the only reason.

I think linking and partnering with an editor that understands you as a writer is paramount. Otherwise, you have someone pecking away, putting commas where they don't belong and messing with dialog that shouldn't be correct - or corrected. How many people do you know that speak like Shakespeare? Yeah, me, neither.

Yes, the narrative should be consistent with the standards alive and well in the English language - but wait! Not always. Sometimes the narrative is composed entirely with the thoughts of the self-same character that is not Willie S. - or even will.i.am. If the same character that doesn't speak properly is thinking, chances are - he's doing it the same way! He's not going to turn into Hemingway just because his thoughts are not audible. In this case, the dialog should be raw - and left to be raw. Liken it to being French and only knowing that language .... do you think this native Frenchman is going to think in Swahili?

I think another aspect is that there is always an antagonist positioning of artist and earthly rules. We like to break them - invent our own rules. Heck, we invent our own worlds! Let's face it, we're downright unruly about protecting our individual voices - or in my case - the voice of my muse. I don't want it tampered with - she wouldn't like it.

I do have a wonderfully simpatico editor right now. She understands my craziness and gives my characters the right to speak - badly. She always changes and moves furniture - and I trust her - sort of.

But really, any writer should have someone look over their work. It's impossible to catch your own mistakes. Just make sure it's someone that likes the genre you write and that makes an effort to enhance the tea you've started to steep.

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by WPotocki

How many people do you know that speak like Shakespeare? Yeah, me, neither.

HA! You got me laughing good on that one. No s**t people don't speak like that. Sit in a busy diner and listen.

I've had one other challenge, too, which is a first-person narrator. It gets tricky -- the narration IS that character's thoughts. Make him 'think' like Shakespeare, and well, the dude is out of character, eh?

You're right -- not one neat reason, or answer to all problems with prose.

I boil it down to clarity. If the result is incomprehensible (or a gross usage mistake like its for it's, etc.) then the sentence needs to be rewritten. But not just because it's funky. In fiction, we call that "flavor" sometimes. And a bland casserole lacking any spices, is well, boring. The last thing we want. Technical or academic documents can be as boring as they like, and they often are, putting most of us to sleep unless we really dig the subject. You can't get away with that in fiction. Bore the reader and it's all over.

[WPotocki]

Originally Posted by William Campbell

I've had one other challenge, too, which is a first-person narrator. It gets tricky -- the narration IS that character's thoughts. Make him 'think' like Shakespeare, and well, the dude is out of character, eh?

You're right -- not one neat reason, or answer to all problems with prose.

Exactly!

I ran into this problem with The Horns of September. Okay, so the protagonist Chuck talks in long, run-on sentences. He's hyper, ergo his phrasing is hyper. He doesn't take a break or pause. He's narrating the story. Okay, fine, BUT, my wonderful editor started reading this and dutifully putting commas to break where people would normally take a breath. She was almost done when she realized that that's how he talks! So she has to go back and correct all the dialog and un-take out the commas. She gets to the end and realizes that oh, crap! That's how he thinks! So she has to go back and re-read and un-take all those other commas out! It took me so long to get that book back that I was going to hunt her down and rubber stamp her in red ink. And it seemed obvious to me, but then I only wrote it ... what the heck could I know?!

Originally Posted by William Campbell

I boil it down to clarity. If the result is incomprehensible (or a gross usage mistake like its for it's, etc.) then the sentence needs to be rewritten. But not just because it's funky. In fiction, we call that "flavor" sometimes. And a bland casserole lacking any spices, is well, boring. The last thing we want. Technical or academic documents can be as boring as they like, and they often are, putting most of us to sleep unless we really dig the subject. You can't get away with that in fiction. Bore the reader and it's all over.

Totally on the same page with you. If the sentence reads awkwardly, it breaks the flow. The reader stops and has to re-read it. Not good. Anything that pulls you out of the story ... not good.

Like The Event, was watching it and the writer put in this foray into one of the aliens being involved in The Manhattan Project?! I was like, what? Why did he go there? Pulled me out of the very fantastically written series.

And as far as proofreaders and editors go, I have found typos in professionally published books, so let's not go getting all nutso on self-published authors. Yes, I will agree that professionally published books adhere to a certain standard of English, but a lot of the stories that line the shelves of hallowed bookstores stink - as in stinko. Then there's the fact that some authors don't even write the book they have their names on. Oh, yeah, right, they're a 'company' or 'brand.'

Smarmy. Proofread or not - it ain't right. At least I write the garbage I produce.

And I say that proudly.

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by WPotocki

Smarmy. Proofread or not - it ain't right. At least I write the garbage I produce. And I say that proudly.

Right on. But the real question is, is it really garbage? That's the thing I'm learning -- these 'weird' ways of writing things, that happen to feel "right" as we record them, are not garbage. And they're not incorrect once one delves deeper into the subject of grammar.

One example is the "then is not a conjunction" argument that has raged for who-knows how long. I was talking with another author recently who noted that their editor made them go back and add 'and' to precede every 'then' when used like a conjunction. OMG! I've already struggled with this myself since I TOTALLY prefer the lack of 'and' in nearly 90% of the cases where I write something like "he opened the door, then dashed into the street." I figure EB White said omit needless words, and to me, in this case 'and' is a needless word. We understand the sentence without it, yes?

But some editors will insist that it's improper grammar without the and, since 'then' is not a proper conjunction.

WRONG.

I finally found a great source that explains it. At last!

Listen to this podcast. It's beautiful.

http://www.copyediting.com/wordpress/?p=314

When 'then' is used in this manner, it even has its own grammatical description:

Enumerative adverbial conjunct.

(not that I completely understand that upon dissecting it, but it does sound cool).

To the sticklers I say, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

My style of using 'then' in this manner does not bother my editor, thank goodness (and unlike me, she has degrees in creative writing and English, etc., so I trust her judgment). And my quirky style hasn't bothered any readers, either, but I have seen talk about it here and there. Again, my personal justification was the omit needless words mantra. Now it's rock-solid.

The other that comes to mind is the 'tight versus tightly' argument, which expands to include a number of other perhaps not fully qualified adverbs. I studied some about this last night, and again found some great material regarding "flat" adverbs as they are called (at least for me, uneducated as I am, it's just nice getting a name for this example of 'garbage' grammar at last). Hold on tight, drive slow, get us out of here quick, etc. If you want to get all stuffy about it, they should have -ly on the end. The most fascinating portion of the research revealed that flat adverbs were much more popular centuries ago but in the modern age they have somehow become looked down upon. Not popular doesn't equate to wrong.

Fascinating stuff, and I suspect like me, your "garbage" is actually effective prose. I'm proud of my crap, too.

(SMILE)

[kcmay]

Thanks for that podcast link, William. She makes wonderful sense. Since I'm deep into the editing phase of my WIP, this is a topic of interest to me!

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by kcmay

Thanks for that podcast link, William. She makes wonderful sense. Since I'm deep into the editing phase of my WIP, this is a topic of interest to me!

My pleasure, KC. Always nice to see my fellow authors playing in the same playground. (smile)

About the link, the site is awesome. I'm going to consume anything she has to say. She's so down-to-earth and matter-of-fact about things others bicker about. I also loved her offhand comment about comma use. Amazing! And so true, the stuff she said about how IT DEPENDS. Like less commas for, as she put it, "a breathless effect."

At last! Somebody understands. We're not writing technical manuals here, for crying out loud.

[C.I.Bond]

Originally Posted by rhadin

The difference between a hack writer and a great writer is that the great writer cares greatly about the reader's experience whereas the hack writer simply writes and publishes and lets readers fend for themselves. The more an author does to slide closer along the spectrum toward the great writer, the more likely the author is to succeed beyond simply self-publishing and being able to say I published my novel.

Ah… so now I have egg on my face. I ran through several beta-readers and thought everything was fine. Submitted for my first review and nope, typos that I didn’t see, can’t see because I have memorized my work. So I stuck my head into the editing pool so see what kind of budget help I could find. It was interesting. My instructor would charge $6k to edit my novel (120k words) so I just took that as cannon and didn’t look any further. I found two editors who would do a copy-edit of the thing for either $1.50/page, the other works by word ½ cent/word. This puts me in the $500-$600 range, much better than $6K. Reasonable for me but might not be for someone else. So now I am asking for samples of their work.

Because I took a class I have more skill than someone who didn’t. This isn’t meant to sound arrogant, I made the same mistakes that everyone does in the beginning… back-story on page 2, too many modifiers, excessive dialogue tags, unsympathetic main character, lack of descriptions, too much descriptions, wandering POV, blah blah blah. If you self-educate you can save some cost and pain. If you get willing, free beta-readers you can also save $$ (I beta-read everything now – 3-6 pages of notes on every story I can’t help myself its horrible, I can’t even get into stories I just think… why did the author do that he just cut the tension… do we need back-story now? 3rd Person POV – tough to manage I hope he give all his characters a unique voice - so if you want a "report" just send me a copy of your book I make them anyway. ). I haven’t tried the natural language reader but you’re going to miss the discrete-discreet or there-they’re issues because it won’t pick them up… and punctuation.

It is possible to cut the cost down if you do much of your own work, and get free-help. That’s what I did but I’m not sure you can eliminate the final proof-read. It bothers me though, on principle to tell someone he shouldn’t peruse writing because he can’t afford an editor. Yet, as I read some Indy work I do cringe at what I perceive as laziness on the part of the author. He couldn’t get a beta-reader to look it over? Shouldn’t Word have caught this grammar issue? If he doesn’t know what the word means why does he use it?
I'm conflicted.

[markuskane]

I've used several copy editors. By far my favorite was the newly graduated college girl I met at my coffee shop. She had been a journalism major, edited the school newspaper and had trouble finding a job she wanted and was working as a data entry clerk at a bank. I offered her a job as a freelancer and she jumped at it, going far and above what I expected. I paid her a fair price and got her started as a freelancer, where she now makes some extra money doing what she knows how to do. Best money I ever spent.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by DavidRM

I'm not saying this will happen to anyone else. I'm sure mine was an isolated experience.

Recently I talked to an author of technical book and the editor practically destroyed his book. The book wasn't in English. That moron (editor) was even translating acronyms like SOAP (Simple Object Access Protocol) into original language, as if the SOAP was the thing you use to wash your hands.
And the author was helpless, because the editor was hired by publisher and had priority.
After the edit, the book was beautifully grammatically correct, but compete nonsense from programmers point of view.

[DavidRM]

Someone mentioned the Serinity Editor. I checked it out this week, using it on a new story. The software is obnoxiously ugly, and a bit odd in how it expects you to use it, but once you wrap your head around it, it rocks. This is part of my workflow from now on. =)

Once the trial period ends, I'll be buying it. $55 isn't bad at all, not for a tool you expect to use a lot.

Here's the Serenity Editor Web page:
http://www.serenity-software.com

-David

PS I'm not associated with the software in any way. If I were, I'd insist on it looking a *lot* better.

[kcmay]

I agree, David. Not terribly user-friendly or pretty, but it's helping me a lot. I'll definitely buy a copy when my trial expires. It even finds duplicated 6-word phrases. I didn't think it would find any, but it found about a dozen!