Massive wave of ebook piracy?

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by MrPLD

Strictly speaking, I think it's very simple.

1. The author/publisher has decided on what terms their work can be obtained.
2. You have no legal or moral right to that media outside of what the creators have offered.
3. If you don't like it, tough.

In short, you have no implied rights to anything anyone created outside of their stipulated terms. It's their work, their choice.

PLD, that makes sense for most products, but I don't think that it is true for the written word. Virtually every country has copyright law which trumps the desires of the author and publisher.

And every copyright law I am aware of calls for there to be a time when the work is public domain whether the author and publisher like it or not.

And each government is free to change the copyright law of its jurisdiction retroactively, again regardless of the preferences of the author and publisher.

[Kajti]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I don't really have a problem with pirating. I know it's illegal, I just don't care.

Ditto. Lots of stuff available, it takes minimal effort to get, it's free. And I'm more likely to be hit by a car than face legal troubles. I bought a media box so I could watch shows and films on my flatscreen without the bother of going to a cinema or renting stuff; I bought an ebook reader so I'd no longer have to pay for the book-a-week I read. Two expenses that paid for themselves in under two years, given the wealth of digital content available. Plus both let me easily enjoy stuff not readily available otherwise, like old TV series never released on DVD, and books never released in paper form.

[MrPLD]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

And every copyright law I am aware of calls for there to be a time when the work is public domain whether the author and publisher like it or not.

For sure, outside of copyright, that's fine - but while it's in copyright and not 'public domain' the author/publisher gets to say. Of course if they choose poorly they'll have woeful sales, however that's an entirely separate discussion.


Paul.

[J. Strnad]

I think it's sad that so many people look to some outside force to determine their morality and their ethics. Maybe it's the government, going to arrest or fine them for misbehaving. Maybe it's God, going to punish them in the Hereafter. Maybe it's the Taliban, going to kill them for, I don't know, not wearing a burkha or some s**t. That's just sad, to me.

I would like to think that more people look at life and their behavior and society, etc., and make some internal choice to behave this way instead of that way, that they develop their own moral compass, that they at the very least follow some form of the golden rule, treating others as they would like to be treated.

Most people would like to be compensated in some way for their hard work, and authors are no different. I would like to think that most people would say to themselves, "If I spent six months or a year or ten years writing a book, would I want people to download it for free, or would I prefer that they pay me a few bucks?" and then act accordingly.

Apparently this level of empathy with others is far outweighed by self-centeredness in many people. Too bad, because this leads to a breakdown in the social contract, which leads to anarchy, in which these very same people find themselves the victims because somebody wants their stuff and has no qualms about taking it.

As much as we depend on police and such, the thing that really keeps us from behaving like a bunch of rabid monkeys is the social contract, which we willingly accept as being, ultimately, in our best interest. Because some people don't buy into the social contract is why we have police and courts and jails and guys named Cheech who break kneecaps with baseball bats.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Kajti

Ditto. Lots of stuff available, it takes minimal effort to get, it's free. And I'm more likely to be hit by a car than face legal troubles. I bought a media box so I could watch shows and films on my flatscreen without the bother of going to a cinema or renting stuff; I bought an ebook reader so I'd no longer have to pay for the book-a-week I read. Two expenses that paid for themselves in under two years, given the wealth of digital content available. Plus both let me easily enjoy stuff not readily available otherwise, like old TV series never released on DVD, and books never released in paper form.

So, because it's easily obtained, it's alright to just take it?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

...And every copyright law I am aware of calls for there to be a time when the work is public domain whether the author and publisher like it or not...

You really need to stick to real estate law. The way copyright laws have been corrupted in the US, the likelyhood of anything in copyright now ever becoming public domain is slim to none.

[speakingtohe]

A question
If you had the opportunity to legally contribute towards the author of a book you have read and enjoyed but obtained in a non standard manner would you do it?

I know this is not likely to happen in the near future as it would totally screw up business models, distribution contracts etc. but I am curious

Helen

[MrPLD]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

A question
If you had the opportunity to legally contribute towards the author of a book you have read and enjoyed but obtained in a non standard manner would you do it?

If it was something I wanted, yes - however the frequency in which the offered and the wanted coincide is unfortunately low - that is the beauty of money, it's a fully transferrable, non-discriminating notion of trading value.

Barter-Card is probably something along the lines of a marginally successful "non-standard-manner", though ultimately it's just money by another name.

Now, if someone can come and paint my house, I'll gladly let them have 10 copies of a book

Paul.

[J. Strnad]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

A question
If you had the opportunity to legally contribute towards the author of a book you have read and enjoyed but obtained in a non standard manner would you do it?

I know this is not likely to happen in the near future as it would totally screw up business models, distribution contracts etc. but I am curious

Helen

I contribute to public radio. I listen to it a lot, and it's worth a few bucks a month to me. I could listen for free, but I don't. I contribute. Why?

Because my self-image is not that of a leech. I'd rather contribute to something that I enjoy, because I can afford it and because it makes me feel good to know that I'm putting my money where it can support something I love.

I'd actually be kind of interested in a business model where I put Risen out there for free and let people who enjoy it send me a few bucks, according to what they can afford. But I also know that it takes a lot of wheedling and whining to get people to contribute to public radio, and I don't want to have to do that.

So, there it is, DRM-free, $2.39-2.99, about the cost of a hot dog. Those people who want it (and let's face it, their major investment is the time it takes to read the damn thing) can have it for a song. If they'd rather snag a copy for free and save two or three bucks, fine.

But am I going to make myself sit down and write another ebook from scratch because it's going to be worth the effort in dollars-and-cents? No. Frankly, no. I'd rather watch TV. Or play with the dogs. Or read. I have a fulltime job that pays the bills. If I could quit that job and write full-time, I'd love to do that, but I can't pay the bills that way.

Do you want a world in which the only writers are people in the "luxury class" who write as a hobby? If so, pirate away! On the other hand, if you want people who study writing and develop their talents as professionals and make some kind of living at it, you'll pay a little something for their work.

I gotta say, though, there's a lot of truth to the assertion that there's so much stuff available in the public domain, it's kind of crazy to pay for anything. Hmm...do I pay $2.39 for a copy of Risen, or download the complete works of Edgar Allen Poe and H. P. Lovecraft for free?

Strange days, folks. Strange days.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by J. Strnad

I contribute to public radio. I listen to it a lot, and it's worth a few bucks a month to me. I could listen for free, but I don't. I contribute. Why?

Because my self-image is not that of a leech. I'd rather contribute to something that I enjoy, because I can afford it and because it makes me feel good to know that I'm putting my money where it can support something I love.

I'd actually be kind of interested in a business model where I put Risen out there for free and let people who enjoy it send me a few bucks, according to what they can afford. But I also know that it takes a lot of wheedling and whining to get people to contribute to public radio, and I don't want to have to do that.

So, there it is, DRM-free, $2.39-2.99, about the cost of a hot dog. Those people who want it (and let's face it, their major investment is the time it takes to read the damn thing) can have it for a song. If they'd rather snag a copy for free and save two or three bucks, fine.

But am I going to make myself sit down and write another ebook from scratch because it's going to be worth the effort in dollars-and-cents? No. Frankly, no. I'd rather watch TV. Or play with the dogs. Or read. I have a fulltime job that pays the bills. If I could quit that job and write full-time, I'd love to do that, but I can't pay the bills that way.

Do you want a world in which the only writers are people in the "luxury class" who write as a hobby? If so, pirate away! On the other hand, if you want people who study writing and develop their talents as professionals and make some kind of living at it, you'll pay a little something for their work.

I gotta say, though, there's a lot of truth to the assertion that there's so much stuff available in the public domain, it's kind of crazy to pay for anything. Hmm...do I pay $2.39 for a copy of Risen, or download the complete works of Edgar Allen Poe and H. P. Lovecraft for free?

Strange days, folks. Strange days.

The wheedling and whining is one of the reasons I quit listening to public radio (I would rather have commercials than that incessant begging), the other being too much emphasis on talking about the music and not enough playing it or playing someting I don't like. I have a 6 CD changer in my truck that will hold up to 30 hours of music so I just listen to it. I've pretty much quit watching public TV because all they show anymore are repeats (and yes, I have donated in the past) and thinly disguised infomercials during the increasingly frequent pledge weeks. Again, I would prefer commercials, especially since begging isn't working.

[sabredog]

I am dead set against any form of geographic restrictions.

But the one thing the horrible and un-necessary barrier has revealed to me (coupled with Mobileread) are the great ebooks written by indie authors. NO GR restrictions there!

Every cloud has a silver lining

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

A question
If you had the opportunity to legally contribute towards the author of a book you have read and enjoyed but obtained in a non standard manner would you do it?

I know this is not likely to happen in the near future as it would totally screw up business models, distribution contracts etc. but I am curious

Helen

Yup. I'm willing to pay for what a data transfer should cost; I'm not willing to pay a price equal to the cost of a printed hardcover when all I'm getting is a few hundred Kb of data. Publishers need to better adjust their pricing models for the differing types of "books" - hardcover, trade, mass market, ebook, audiobook. If authors would set up PayPal accounts or whatever where folks could send money, I think it would be a smart idea on their part; not to mention it cuts out their middleman.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, we're on the cusp of the development of a old-style Napster mentality toward the distribution of ebooks via the P2P networks - no matter what high ethical horses the people on this thread take. Too many books are already out there and for people who view computers as more than just an appliance like a toaster, they already know how to access them. The only people I know who haven't already accessed material that could be deemed copyright violation are the people for whom cutting-and-pasting is akin to rocket science. Otherwise, I'm talking about age ranges from teens to eighties. These folks have already been downloading music and movies for years and for a lot what set them on the course was a revolt against the rip-off prices in the early years of digital music and recorded movies. Remember paying $79 for a VHS/Beta tape, or $31 for a single CD? That's what made the alternative sources so attractive. It was affordable and it was an up-yours to the recording and film executives that were blatantly ripping off their customers. Charging hardcover prices for an ebook is just deja vu.

I liked what Sharon Lee & Steve Miller did with their book Fledgling, in their Liaden Universe series. They put up a chapter online, and if people wanted to read more then they were asked to contribute whatever they wanted. As soon as they reached XX number of dollars, a new chapter would go up. People ultimately donated so much that they had to stop the soliciting because the number of chapters they had planned for the book were met quickly. I was happy to give money that way, just as I had no problem buying their books in ebook form (even though I already have them in various paperback and hardcover forms) from Baen because the ebook prices are sensible there; I could have just as easily gotten them for "free" online.

[Kajti]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

So, because it's easily obtained, it's alright to just take it?

Loads of people download stuff. You think we obsess over whether it's right? We told you up front: we don't care. If you care to spend time thinking about it, have fun, but most of us don't find it a worthwhile hobby.

[ficbot]

This whole thing reminds me about the people who whine on the talk shows about teenagers having sex. I remember one lady on Dr. Phil who refused to get her 17-year-old daughter a birth control prescription because she felt the kid should not be having sex. But the kid already was. The morality of whether she should be or should not be is a completely secondary issue to dealing with the reality that ship has sailed already. If you deny there is a problem and plug your ears going la la la in a situation like that, you are going to end up with a pregnant teenager. Should vs should not is a completely separate discussion to solving what *is.*

This whole piracy argument is the same thing. You have a large population of customers here that is basically saying 'serve us, or else we'll go elsewhere.' Whether they should or should not be doing so is a completely separate discussion. They ARE. They feel unserved and they are taking certain actions regardless of whether they should or they shouldn't be. So you have two choices. You continue to justify and make excuses and erect obstacles, and *they* continue to do what they're going to do. Or, you think of some way to service them and monetize their actions to your benefit. Morality really has nothing to do with it. It is totally secondary to the reality of what is actually happening, and that is what publishers need to be dealing with. The best way to prevent someone from downloading through a torrent site is it provide them with a convenient way to buy it legally---iTunes with its one billion downloads has proven this. But if you fail to make the book available in the first place, how do you expect them to buy it legally? You can argue all you want to about the morality, and how this is not food and they just should not buy it or whatever, but the *reality* is that YOU are not providing them with an alternative. So they are going their own way, without you, morality or no morality, and that is the reality of the world that publishers must contend with if they want to succeed.

[MrPLD]

Originally Posted by Kajti

Loads of people download stuff. You think we obsess over whether it's right? We told you up front: we don't care. If you care to spend time thinking about it, have fun, but most of us don't find it a worthwhile hobby.

I don't think a lot of the posters here explicitly care that people are pirating, it's a thing that just is and many of us already acknowledge it. What we are however saying is "Don't try paint it as something else or justify your actions to be right". You want to pirate stuff, no problem, that's your choice as much as many of us choose not to condone it or give it an inch of legitimacy.

You can argue stealing food to feed your family or other necessities, however a book... movie... music, hardly something required to sustain life.