Philosophy: books and discussion - Page 63

kennyc · 09-24-2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthursbedtime

Where do you think the Greek philosophers got their ideas.
They went to the Jewish leaders and studied there, coming back with the concept of One God.
I get the impression religion is an overbearing subject but it is the foundation of philosophy. Our western world is based on Christian teachings, or someones interpretation of those teachings. So we messed up. It does not mean that the original message was wrong.

I disagree completely that religion is the foundation of philosophy.

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language...

It has very little to do with religion per-se, but certainly is tangentially related.

As far as where the Greeks got their ideas, seems to me they simply looked around themselves and asked questions. Which is the real core of philosophy (and science).

WT Sharpe · 09-24-2010, 12:11 PM

The pre-socratics were among the first to speculate about nature without reference to the gods.

FlorenceArt · 09-24-2010, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthursbedtime

Where do you think the Greek philosophers got their ideas.
They went to the Jewish leaders and studied there, coming back with the concept of One God.
I get the impression religion is an overbearing subject but it is the foundation of philosophy. Our western world is based on Christian teachings, or someones interpretation of those teachings. So we messed up. It does not mean that the original message was wrong.

If this is going to become another "my religion is better than yours" thread, I will ask a mod to close it.

mysweety · 09-25-2010, 10:02 AM

I think the presocratics had plenty of more interesting sources than the Jewish leaders! For example the Egytians - wasn't it Herodotus who said something like "Compared to the Egyptians in mathematics the Greeks are like small children". There is also a question of the Persian magi. The question is whether the Upanishads and Vedas had an influence on Heraclitus - this is a contested subject.

The rig veda has an interesting hymn on a conscious, creator - see 10.129. Also Heraclitus repeats this theme - fragment DK 30.

Arthursbedtime · 10-01-2010, 03:01 PM

I will leave this discussion to others.
Life is full of mysteries and I would be the last one
to say that I got all the answers.

v1k1ng1001 · 10-09-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthursbedtime

Where do you think the Greek philosophers got their ideas.
They went to the Jewish leaders and studied there, coming back with the concept of One God.

With regards to the emergence of monotheism, there may have been some influence from the east but I think the idea that Greek philosophers traveled to and studied in Judea is wishful thinking at best.

Arthursbedtime · 10-15-2010, 03:55 AM

And Toronto shoppers don't go buying in Buffalo?

FlorenceArt · 10-15-2010, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysweety

Some time ago I was going through the book by West "Early Greek Philosophy and the Orient". He says that to understand Heraclitus it is more helpful to read "Brhadaranyaka Upanishad" than the other earlier presocratics. Well I have started on that path by downloading the commentary by Krishnamurti as a pdf and a very well commented French version from

http://www.les-108-upanishads.ch/brihadaranyaka.html.

This is easy to turn into an ebook using for example Sigil.

Was West correct - any opinions, thoughts?

I just had a quick look at your link, and at the Stanford page on Heraclitus. Like many ancient Greek philosophers, his work is only known through fragments, which makes interpretation difficult:

Quote:

He has been variously judged by ancient and modern commentators to be a material monist or a process philosopher; a scientific cosmologist, a metaphysician, or a mainly religious thinker; an empiricist, a rationalist, or a mystic; a conventional thinker or a revolutionary; a developer of logic or one who denied the law of non-contradiction; the first genuine philosopher or an anti-intellectual obscurantist.

It seems to me that there may be similarities between the two texts. They do seem to have both a tendency to what I see as a mystic frame of mind, which I'm afraid doesn't interest me much personally, so I'm not really inclined to research this. Have you progressed in your reading since your post? Do you think West is right?

v1k1ng1001 · 10-16-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthursbedtime

And Toronto shoppers don't go buying in Buffalo?

Wishful thinking was bad enough, but wishful thinking supported by disanalogical reasoning is just, well, offensive.

mysweety · 10-22-2010, 09:37 AM

Hi FlorenceArt

Well of course one of the interesting things about H. is that we only possess fragments but they are very extensive. There has been much work done on interpretation - the best I have seen is by Conche.

Yes I have made some headway and believe that the fragments are a comment on the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad. The thrust of the two works is very similar and Heraclitus illuminates the basic non-dual thrust of the upanishad.

Incidentally there is nothing "mystic" about either of these works - H. can not be interpreted in this vain.

I have now found other texts for the Upanishad which are totally non-dualist. Unfortunately not available in ebook format. There is a translation by Swami Madhavananda which includes a commentary by Sankaracarya published by Advaita at a very reasonable price.

Best regards

kennyc · 11-09-2010, 12:10 PM

What's new 'round here?

FlorenceArt · 11-09-2010, 12:48 PM

I've been wanting to post about Seneca for weeks, but somehow never get around to it. I'm still reading the Letters to Lucilius. Maybe some day I'll find the time

kennyc · 11-09-2010, 12:58 PM

We're waiting.......

issybird · 11-12-2010, 07:21 PM

I've been looking for an ebook edition of Either/Or, but I've only found Amazon not available to the USA. Sigh. Doesn't even matter that I have a Nook.

TGS · 11-12-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

I've been looking for an ebook edition of Either/Or, but I've only found Amazon not available to the USA. Sigh. Doesn't even matter that I have a Nook.

You could try Diesel on this link. It is "temporarily unavailable" but might be worth contacting them to see when they are able to sell it to you.

It might also be available in some dark and dangerous places that we don't mention.

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09-24-2010, 12:11 PM	#932
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,072 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	The pre-socratics were among the first to speculate about nature without reference to the gods.

09-25-2010, 10:02 AM	#934
mysweety Connoisseur Posts: 61 Karma: 7104 Join Date: Jul 2009 Device: Hanlin V3, PB360	I think the presocratics had plenty of more interesting sources than the Jewish leaders! For example the Egytians - wasn't it Herodotus who said something like "Compared to the Egyptians in mathematics the Greeks are like small children". There is also a question of the Persian magi. The question is whether the Upanishads and Vedas had an influence on Heraclitus - this is a contested subject. The rig veda has an interesting hymn on a conscious, creator - see 10.129. Also Heraclitus repeats this theme - fragment DK 30.

10-01-2010, 03:01 PM	#935
Arthursbedtime Enthusiast Posts: 36 Karma: 166 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: kobo	I will leave this discussion to others. Life is full of mysteries and I would be the last one to say that I got all the answers.

10-15-2010, 03:55 AM	#937
Arthursbedtime Enthusiast Posts: 36 Karma: 166 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: kobo	And Toronto shoppers don't go buying in Buffalo?

10-22-2010, 09:37 AM	#940
mysweety Connoisseur Posts: 61 Karma: 7104 Join Date: Jul 2009 Device: Hanlin V3, PB360	Hi FlorenceArt Well of course one of the interesting things about H. is that we only possess fragments but they are very extensive. There has been much work done on interpretation - the best I have seen is by Conche. Yes I have made some headway and believe that the fragments are a comment on the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad. The thrust of the two works is very similar and Heraclitus illuminates the basic non-dual thrust of the upanishad. Incidentally there is nothing "mystic" about either of these works - H. can not be interpreted in this vain. I have now found other texts for the Upanishad which are totally non-dualist. Unfortunately not available in ebook format. There is a translation by Swami Madhavananda which includes a commentary by Sankaracarya published by Advaita at a very reasonable price. Best regards

11-09-2010, 12:10 PM	#941
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,930 Karma: 119747553 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2 & PW, Onyx Boox Go6	What's new 'round here?

11-09-2010, 12:48 PM	#942
FlorenceArt High Priestess Posts: 5,761 Karma: 5042529 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreuil sous bois, France Device: iPad Pro 9.7, iPhone 6 Plus	I've been wanting to post about Seneca for weeks, but somehow never get around to it. I'm still reading the Letters to Lucilius. Maybe some day I'll find the time

11-09-2010, 12:58 PM	#943
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,930 Karma: 119747553 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2 & PW, Onyx Boox Go6	We're waiting.......

11-12-2010, 07:21 PM	#944
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 21,521 Karma: 236076651 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: Mini, H2O, Glo HD, Aura One, PW4, PW5	I've been looking for an ebook edition of Either/Or, but I've only found Amazon not available to the USA. Sigh. Doesn't even matter that I have a Nook.