Am I expecting too much too soon?

cozworth · 10-29-2007, 12:09 PM

Having been converted to using a laptop instead of a desktop a few years ago I started storing all kinds of things on my laptop. Then I started downloading books to it (lots of books). Next I start looking at buying an ereader device...After what I thought was a great deal of research I purchased a Sony PRS500. I wanted the 505 but I just can't seem to find one around here so I got the 500.

I also thought it would be great because I can store many of my work reference pieces (that are in Adobe PDF) but the hitch there is that the doc's are in really small fonts so even after using some other software to improve the quality the text is so small I can't easily review it.

The whole idea was that I could read my books on my laptop when I was home - or somewhere that I had intentionally brought the laptop with me. But it just isn't practical to carry the laptop around EVERYWHERE...hence the need for the reader.

Well, I stared using it about a week ago and I am incredibly disappointed. I have a fair amount books that I purchased in the Adobe Digital Content. I thought I could read my books on the laptop and carry the reader with me the rest of the time and continue reading what I was reading at home...but I can't open the darn Digital Content on the Sony ereader! So, now I am wondering if I get a different mobile device if I would be able to view my Digital Content books while I am out and about....

I am considering a Palm TX. Palm looks like they are going to be around in the coming years and the screen size is fairly decent. I have a Treo 650 phone but the screen is so tiny I would never seriously think of reading a book on it...anyone have any suggestions about the device or the Digital Content compatibility with other devices that are currently available? The screen size is important to me. That is why I went with the Sony (that and it said I could use it the PDF's) but I have considered the Palm Tx in the last few days because of the problems...the upside of the Palm is that it has backlighting...

I am in love with the idea of carrying 50 or 100+ books in my pocket but this format issue is really making me crazy. I refused to use an MP3 player until Ipod came along. Now I don't know what I would do without it...too bad they don't make an ereader!

I want to make the same leap with books but I am realizing that I could really use some advice...I don't want to make another $300 mistake.

Thanks for your help!
Cozworth (Dawn)

igorsk · 10-29-2007, 01:09 PM

As far as I know, currently there are no mobile devices that can read DRM'ed PDFs. Complain to Adobe, maybe if they get enough emails they will get the message (well, a man can hope).
Another (better) approach would be to avoid DRM altogether. There's plenty of free and non-DRM content you can get onto your Reader.

BTW the Reader specs did mention it cannot read secure PDF, so you don't really have anyone else to blame.

JSWolf · 10-31-2007, 02:15 AM

The problem is that you purchased DRM laden PDF and right now, there are no eink based devices that can read DRM laden PDF. And I don't think Adobe really cares. Heck, you cannot even read them with Acrobat 8 Reader. To be honest, I don't think Adobe cares anymore about DRM PDF.

DaleDe · 10-31-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem is that you purchased DRM laden PDF and right now, there are no eink based devices that can read DRM laden PDF. And I don't think Adobe really cares. Heck, you cannot even read them with Acrobat 8 Reader. To be honest, I don't think Adobe cares anymore about DRM PDF.

Again? Digital Editions can read those books I believe so Adobe does care. They are just give eBooks separate attention from their PDF reader which I think is the right thing to do.

DMcCunney · 11-02-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozworth

I am considering a Palm TX. Palm looks like they are going to be around in the coming years and the screen size is fairly decent. I have a Treo 650 phone but the screen is so tiny I would never seriously think of reading a book on it...anyone have any suggestions about the device or the Digital Content compatibility with other devices that are currently available? The screen size is important to me. That is why I went with the Sony (that and it said I could use it the PDF's) but I have considered the Palm Tx in the last few days because of the problems...the upside of the Palm is that it has backlighting...

I am in love with the idea of carrying 50 or 100+ books in my pocket but this format issue is really making me crazy. I refused to use an MP3 player until Ipod came along. Now I don't know what I would do without it...too bad they don't make an ereader!

I want to make the same leap with books but I am realizing that I could really use some advice...I don't want to make another $300 mistake.

Thanks for your help!
Cozworth (Dawn)

The Palm TX is an appropriate choice. What you have to watch for is ebook format.

I read ebooks on a Tapwave Zodiac 2. The Zodiac is a Palm OS device with a 320x480 color screen and 128MB of memory. It has two SD card slots, can take 2GB cards "stock", and with the addition of a FAT32 driver, can take 4GB cards. I have about 3,000 ebooks on a card in my device.

The TX is comparable, with only a single SD slot, but it can take 4GB cards "out of the box". It also builds in Wifi, and uses NVFS for storage, so data is retained if you lose power. (Older Palm devices stored data and programs in RAM, and if the battery ran down completely, you lost everything that wasn't stored on a card.)

The issue is ebook format. There are several ebook formats in use on Palm devices, each with their own associated reader. I prefer to get content in HTML format from Project Gutenberg and elsewhere, and convert for Plucker, a free, open source offline HTML viewer for PalmOS. Titles are also offered in "Peanut Press" format from eReader.com, with a freeware reader for them, and MobiPocket format, with a freeware reader. Some folks also use iSilo, a shareware HTML viewer, and TomeRaider, an ebook viewer that handles really large files (Wikipedia is available for it). There are also a couple of different formats for plain text files, including Palm "doc" files, zTXT files, and plain text files stored on a card. And it's possible to read PDF files on a Plm device, but not recommended unless there isn't another choice. PDFs aren't formatted for the small screen, and reading them is problematic.

In addition, you have the issue of Digital Rights Management, and protected ebooks that require a key. eReader and Mobipocket both offer DRM'd books, but with different protection models. MobiPocket's is about the best compromise assuming you have to deal with DRM: you can install DRM'd MobiPocket ebooks on up to five devices, sou you could read them on laptop and PDA.

Bottom line, the TX is an appropriate device to use, the screen is adequate, and you can have enough capacity to carry a lot of ebooks. But you won't be able to read the DRM's PDFs you already have.
______
Dennis

wallcraft · 11-03-2007, 01:29 AM

The first thing to decide is whether you want to be able to read your DRM-infested Adobe e-books or not. If you write them off (i.e. only read them on your laptop from now on), then the PRS-500 may be salvageable.

If you want to read your Adobe e-books on a pocket-able device, then a Palm is your only choice. See for example Secure Adobe Reader 6.0 at FictionWise. It says that Palm devices can read their Secure Adobe content, but I would check to make sure your exact model number is supported on your e-books (e.g. ask at where ever you bought them from). You can read other e-book formats on a Palm, so it is a reasonable choice (if perhaps a less clearcut win over Windows Mobile devices than it used to be).

If you never want to get in the DRM lock-in trap again, and have a Windows laptop, then one option is to only buy non-DRM (typically multi-format) e-books or "secure" .LIT (MS Reader) e-books. The .LIT DRM can be stripped (e.g. using CovertLIT or ABC Amber LIT Converter) and the file can then be converted to whatever format you want. One option is lit2prs for your Sony, see libprs500 now includes MS LIT converter: lit2lrf. Note that the legality of stripping DRM is at best a gray area in some countries, but is victim-less if you bought the original e-book and don't give it to anyone else.

If the ConvertLIT route isn't for you, but you still want to buy DRMed e-books, then switch to MobiPocket. It is widely available, and its DRM can be broken if circumstances change in the future.

One last point is that Adobe Digital Editions should eventually be able to read your Adobe e-books (if it can't already). Adobe DE will be available on the Sony PRS-505 next year. My betting is that it won't be available on the PRS-500, but Sony has not said for sure one way or the other that I have heard.

I personally regard Adobe as the only "evil" e-book vendor. They and their content providers have a history of screwing their customers. I'm sure what they do is legal (i.e. you got what the fine print said you were buying), but they are not an ethical company that looks out for their customers (hence "evil"). There seem to be more support issues with Adobe e-books than with other formats, and if you read the FAQs of some of the sellers of both Adobe e-books and other formats you get the impression that they are quite fed up with Adobe too. In its favor - it is one of the few e-book formats available from libraries (MobiPocket is another).

rotwang · 11-11-2007, 06:43 AM

Since the purpose of this forum is presumably to spread information, it would seem worthwhile to make those who don't already know aware that there are a number of commercial software applications fully capable of stripping passwords and DRM from PDF documents.

--- Removed DRM circumvention details, per Forum Policy ---

And for you busybodies who would like to point out that stripping DRM is illegal, please bear in mind that there are at least 194 countries in the world, each with different laws on "intellectual property", so please don't assume that the laws of your own country apply in every other one.

AnemicOak · 11-11-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotwang

Since the purpose of this forum is presumably to spread information, it would seem worthwhile to make those who don't already know aware that there are a number of commercial software applications fully capable of stripping DRM from PDF documents.

--- Removed DRM circumvention details, per Forum Policy ---

DRM & Password protection are two completely differtent animals. PDFKey Pro DOES NOT strip DRM, it just handles password protected PDF's.

Directly from their site...

Quote:

PDFKey Pro is not compatible with DRM'ed eBooks from eStores. PDFKey Pro is designed to help you work with PDF files when you've lost your password, or when you need to process your PDFs all at once.

It is not designed to defeat DRM.

AFAIK there is no software out there that strips DRM from a PDF. I have one PDF ebook I bought a long time ago that I'd love to be able to use on various devices so if there is a way to un-DRM it I'd love to know about it.

rotwang · 11-11-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

DRM & Password protection are two completely differtent animals. PDFKey Pro DOES NOT strip DRM, it just handles password protected PDF's.

Directly from their site...

AFAIK there is no software out there that strips DRM from a PDF. I have one PDF ebook I bought a long time ago that I'd love to be able to use on various devices so if there is a way to un-DRM it I'd love to know about it.

You are right, I stand corrected. However, I believe there is software out there that strips DRM from a PDF. Unfortunately (for me), it is Windows-only.

---Removed DRM circumvention details, per Forum Policy---

As you may recall, Adobe sicked the FBI on one of Elcomsoft's engineers (Dimitry Skylarov) a few years ago while he was giving a talk at a Defcon Conference in Las Vegas. He was arrested and detained in the US until the trial during which both he and Elcomsoft were acquitted. What a slimy company Adobe is.

AnemicOak · 11-11-2007, 11:17 PM

Interesting info

jbenny · 11-12-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotwang

You are right, I stand corrected. However, I believe there is software out there that strips DRM from a PDF. Unfortunately (for me), it is Windows-only.

--- Removed DRM circumvention details, per Forum Policy ---

As you may recall, Adobe sicked the FBI on one of Elcomsoft's engineers (Dimitry Skylarov) a few years ago while he was giving a talk at a Defcon Conference in Las Vegas. He was arrested and detained in the US until the trial during which both he and Elcomsoft were acquitted. What a slimy company Adobe is.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe this software will remove the DRM that is on the ebook variety of PDF. It will remove passwords, but the encryption scheme that Adobe uses for DRM is not the same as user/owner passwords. I wish it was that simple.

kovidgoyal · 11-12-2007, 03:46 AM

I remember looking at this a while back and coming away with the impression that adobe has the ability to use plugins for encryption, so it's highly unlikely that the password based encryption and the particular encryption that an ebook uses is the same.

rotwang · 11-12-2007, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

I remember looking at this a while back and coming away with the impression that adobe has the ability to use plugins for encryption, so it's highly unlikely that the password based encryption and the particular encryption that an ebook uses is the same.

Elcomsoft claims (on their web site) that their "Advanced PDF Password Recovery" suite is capable of decrypting encrypted PDF documents so long as plug-in encryption is not used. From what I can tell, there is a built-in encryption scheme which can use either a 40-bit or 128-bit key, as well as the option for using 3rd party plug-ins for the encryption.

I have not run across enough encrypted PDF documents to have any idea how widespread plug-ins are versus the default built-in encryption, but would be curious to find out if anyone can shed any light... Presumably if one were sufficiently widespread, Elcomsoft might consider adding support for it in a future release -- after all, this is what they specialise in.

NatCh · 11-12-2007, 11:49 AM

Putting on the Moderator's hat for a moment:

PLEASE NOTE: MobileRead Policy is to avoid explicit discussions of the details of DRM removal. This includes posting tools for DRM removal, I mention this for the sake of thoroughness, even though it hasn't been mentioned here.

Such information and tools are illegal to disseminate in the U.S. where our servers are based. The above posts will be edited to remove such details, and we ask your cooperation in observing this policy.

Thank you.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 11-12-2007, 12:39 PM

Which is just as well... I got the impression Cozworth wasn't interested in all that effort to strip DRM...

Quote:

I refused to use an MP3 player until Ipod came along.

It is too early for Adobe Digital Content, it hasn't even been rendered fully compatible with PDF (heck, it won't even reflow!). Maybe when ePub becomes more prevalent, e-book usage will be noticeably easier and consistent across the board.

10-29-2007, 12:09 PM	#1
cozworth gadget crazy Posts: 34 Karma: 10 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Royal Oak, MI USA Device: PRS 505/900	Am I expecting too much too soon? Having been converted to using a laptop instead of a desktop a few years ago I started storing all kinds of things on my laptop. Then I started downloading books to it (lots of books). Next I start looking at buying an ereader device...After what I thought was a great deal of research I purchased a Sony PRS500. I wanted the 505 but I just can't seem to find one around here so I got the 500. I also thought it would be great because I can store many of my work reference pieces (that are in Adobe PDF) but the hitch there is that the doc's are in really small fonts so even after using some other software to improve the quality the text is so small I can't easily review it. The whole idea was that I could read my books on my laptop when I was home - or somewhere that I had intentionally brought the laptop with me. But it just isn't practical to carry the laptop around EVERYWHERE...hence the need for the reader. Well, I stared using it about a week ago and I am incredibly disappointed. I have a fair amount books that I purchased in the Adobe Digital Content. I thought I could read my books on the laptop and carry the reader with me the rest of the time and continue reading what I was reading at home...but I can't open the darn Digital Content on the Sony ereader! So, now I am wondering if I get a different mobile device if I would be able to view my Digital Content books while I am out and about.... I am considering a Palm TX. Palm looks like they are going to be around in the coming years and the screen size is fairly decent. I have a Treo 650 phone but the screen is so tiny I would never seriously think of reading a book on it...anyone have any suggestions about the device or the Digital Content compatibility with other devices that are currently available? The screen size is important to me. That is why I went with the Sony (that and it said I could use it the PDF's) but I have considered the Palm Tx in the last few days because of the problems...the upside of the Palm is that it has backlighting... I am in love with the idea of carrying 50 or 100+ books in my pocket but this format issue is really making me crazy. I refused to use an MP3 player until Ipod came along. Now I don't know what I would do without it...too bad they don't make an ereader! I want to make the same leap with books but I am realizing that I could really use some advice...I don't want to make another $300 mistake. Thanks for your help! Cozworth (Dawn)

11-11-2007, 06:43 AM	#7
rotwang Junior Member Posts: 4 Karma: 220 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: Iliad	Since the purpose of this forum is presumably to spread information, it would seem worthwhile to make those who don't already know aware that there are a number of commercial software applications fully capable of stripping passwords and DRM from PDF documents. --- Removed DRM circumvention details, per Forum Policy --- And for you busybodies who would like to point out that stripping DRM is illegal, please bear in mind that there are at least 194 countries in the world, each with different laws on "intellectual property", so please don't assume that the laws of your own country apply in every other one. Last edited by rotwang; 11-12-2007 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Corrected error -- PDFKey Pro only strips passwords, not DRM

10-29-2007, 01:09 PM	#2
igorsk Wizard Posts: 3,442 Karma: 300001 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Belgium Device: PRS-500/505/700, Kindle, Cybook Gen3, Words Gear	As far as I know, currently there are no mobile devices that can read DRM'ed PDFs. Complain to Adobe, maybe if they get enough emails they will get the message (well, a man can hope). Another (better) approach would be to avoid DRM altogether. There's plenty of free and non-DRM content you can get onto your Reader. BTW the Reader specs did mention it cannot read secure PDF, so you don't really have anyone else to blame.

10-31-2007, 02:15 AM	#3
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 78,947 Karma: 144284074 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	The problem is that you purchased DRM laden PDF and right now, there are no eink based devices that can read DRM laden PDF. And I don't think Adobe really cares. Heck, you cannot even read them with Acrobat 8 Reader. To be honest, I don't think Adobe cares anymore about DRM PDF.

11-03-2007, 01:29 AM	#6
wallcraft reader Posts: 6,977 Karma: 5183568 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Device: Kindle 3, Kobo Glo HD	The first thing to decide is whether you want to be able to read your DRM-infested Adobe e-books or not. If you write them off (i.e. only read them on your laptop from now on), then the PRS-500 may be salvageable. If you want to read your Adobe e-books on a pocket-able device, then a Palm is your only choice. See for example Secure Adobe Reader 6.0 at FictionWise. It says that Palm devices can read their Secure Adobe content, but I would check to make sure your exact model number is supported on your e-books (e.g. ask at where ever you bought them from). You can read other e-book formats on a Palm, so it is a reasonable choice (if perhaps a less clearcut win over Windows Mobile devices than it used to be). If you never want to get in the DRM lock-in trap again, and have a Windows laptop, then one option is to only buy non-DRM (typically multi-format) e-books or "secure" .LIT (MS Reader) e-books. The .LIT DRM can be stripped (e.g. using CovertLIT or ABC Amber LIT Converter) and the file can then be converted to whatever format you want. One option is lit2prs for your Sony, see libprs500 now includes MS LIT converter: lit2lrf. Note that the legality of stripping DRM is at best a gray area in some countries, but is victim-less if you bought the original e-book and don't give it to anyone else. If the ConvertLIT route isn't for you, but you still want to buy DRMed e-books, then switch to MobiPocket. It is widely available, and its DRM can be broken if circumstances change in the future. One last point is that Adobe Digital Editions should eventually be able to read your Adobe e-books (if it can't already). Adobe DE will be available on the Sony PRS-505 next year. My betting is that it won't be available on the PRS-500, but Sony has not said for sure one way or the other that I have heard. I personally regard Adobe as the only "evil" e-book vendor. They and their content providers have a history of screwing their customers. I'm sure what they do is legal (i.e. you got what the fine print said you were buying), but they are not an ethical company that looks out for their customers (hence "evil"). There seem to be more support issues with Adobe e-books than with other formats, and if you read the FAQs of some of the sellers of both Adobe e-books and other formats you get the impression that they are quite fed up with Adobe too. In its favor - it is one of the few e-book formats available from libraries (MobiPocket is another).

11-11-2007, 11:17 PM	#10
AnemicOak Bookaholic Posts: 14,391 Karma: 54969924 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Minnesota Device: iPad Mini 4, AuraHD, iPhone XR +	Interesting info

11-12-2007, 03:46 AM	#12
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,149 Karma: 27110894 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	I remember looking at this a while back and coming away with the impression that adobe has the ability to use plugins for encryption, so it's highly unlikely that the password based encryption and the particular encryption that an ebook uses is the same.

11-12-2007, 11:49 AM	#14
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Putting on the Moderator's hat for a moment: PLEASE NOTE: MobileRead Policy is to avoid explicit discussions of the details of DRM removal. This includes posting tools for DRM removal, I mention this for the sake of thoroughness, even though it hasn't been mentioned here. Such information and tools are illegal to disseminate in the U.S. where our servers are based. The above posts will be edited to remove such details, and we ask your cooperation in observing this policy. Thank you.