Kindle Privacy

[whitearrow]

I would be interested in seeing the context of the statement in the original post. I'm pretty sure that when Amazon says it may "report the information they've collected from your Kindle 'in non-aggregate form' to law enforcement and litigants," the next phrase is "when compelled to do so by a subpoena" or something similar.

The Kindle License Agreement (US) discloses that Amazon collects information: "The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice."

The Privacy Notice says that Amazon "We release account and other personal information when we believe release is appropriate to comply with the law..." e.g., generally meaning a subpoena (or, I guess, a national security letter or some other instrument compelling Amazon to respond).

The info Amazon identifies is perfectly legitimate for it to know -- some of it it has to know in order to provide the service. It has to know when an Amazon book is deleted from the device, so it will show up in the archive, for example. It's useful to know if some devices are restarting all the time, which indicates a software bug, etc.

As for the rest, I really, seriously doubt that absent a subpoena, Amazon is poking around our Kindles, looking for some reason to report a Kindle user to law enforcement. As someone upthread points out, logs don't give them access to the files themselves, and a file name itself could mean anything, given that we can name our files any way we want.

The publicity if they ever reported a user to the police (absent something like evidence of child pornography) would be so devastating that it would make the 1984 debacle look like a stroll in the park. Amazon may have the right to go looking through our Kindles, but they have every practical reason in the world not to do so.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by whitearrow

The publicity if they ever reported a user to the police (absent something like evidence of child pornography) would be so devastating that it would make the 1984 debacle look like a stroll in the park. Amazon may have the right to go looking through our Kindles, but they have every practical reason in the world not to do so.

I'm currently waiting for my Kindle, and I'm not particularly concerned about this, but I do want to make a point. The problem isn't necessarily Amazon itself, the (potential) problem is Amazon employees. Amazon may not give two figs about me, but one of their employees might, and if they have access to data about my Kindle, they might use it against me.

Allow me to give an example. The police in the UK can get my address from my car registration number, but generally don't unless they have a good reason. However, individual policemen have been known to abuse that ability. Here's an example - a policeman got an address of a man that had annoyed his friend, then the friend went to his house and threw a brick through his window.

[Bittybye]

I've wondered the same thing, but with hundreds (maybe thousands) of Kindles out there I doubt that they care what 1 person has on their Kindle. For me all they'd find out is that I like romance and Doctor Who fanfiction.

And wouldn't simply turning off your wifi/3g solve the problem? Or can Amazon turn your wifi on remotely?

[SpeckledJim]

Originally Posted by Bittybye

And wouldn't simply turning off your wifi/3g solve the problem? Or can Amazon turn your wifi on remotely?

It would be a pretty clever trick to turn on your wi-fi remotely without the wi-fi being on already. Cue conspiracy theories about the K3 wi-fi not actually going off when instructed just so Amazon still have a way in...

[Bittybye]

Originally Posted by SpeckledJim

It would be a pretty clever trick to turn on your wi-fi remotely without the wi-fi being on already. Cue conspiracy theories about the K3 wi-fi not actually going off when instructed just so Amazon still have a way in...

Of course, well never let it be said that I'm any good with this tech stuff.

Can you imagine the backlash if people found out that Amazon made it so the wifi didn't actually turn off?

[s0litaire]

Theirs nothing to say although the Wireless is turned of that it stays off!

It may have a flag that tells the kindle to connect once every 24h or 48h and see if there's any legal/security notifications (like revoked books!)

Only way to be sure is to keep the wireless and 3g turned off for a week and check it's logs to see if it attempts to connect.

[whitearrow]

Originally Posted by SpeckledJim

It would be a pretty clever trick to turn on your wi-fi remotely without the wi-fi being on already.

Not to mention it would probably fail FCC certification if you couldn't, say, turn it off on an airplane.

[whitearrow]

Originally Posted by avantman42

I'm currently waiting for my Kindle, and I'm not particularly concerned about this, but I do want to make a point. The problem isn't necessarily Amazon itself, the (potential) problem is Amazon employees. Amazon may not give two figs about me, but one of their employees might, and if they have access to data about my Kindle, they might use it against me.

Allow me to give an example. The police in the UK can get my address from my car registration number, but generally don't unless they have a good reason. However, individual policemen have been known to abuse that ability. Here's an example - a policeman got an address of a man that had annoyed his friend, then the friend went to his house and threw a brick through his window.

I don't understand how a Kindle plays into this.

If an Amazon employee wants a customer's address, presumably they can get that whether or not the customer has a Kindle.

What can they find out about you from your Kindle specifically, and how could they "use that against you?" That you read trashy novels? Again, from logs, the most they can see is titles, not the files themselves.

I'd also be pretty surprised if every CS rep at Amazon had access to things like Kindle log files identified to a specific user. And I'd also be surprised if access to such information wasn't itself logged, so that if there was an issue, it could be traced back to a specific employee.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by whitearrow

I don't understand how a Kindle plays into this.

If an Amazon employee wants a customer's address, presumably they can get that whether or not the customer has a Kindle.

Fair point. I hadn't thought about it a great deal, as I said, I'm not concerned about it

Originally Posted by whitearrow

I'd also be pretty surprised if every CS rep at Amazon had access to things like Kindle log files identified to a specific user. And I'd also be surprised if access to such information wasn't itself logged, so that if there was an issue, it could be traced back to a specific employee.

Agreed on both points. In the case I cited, the policeman was caught (presumably from audit logs), but none the less, it happened.

I was just trying to make the point that it doesn't have to be Amazon as a company that decides to do something with your data - one of their employees could do so.

[whitearrow]

I'm not trying to undercut or downplay legitimate privacy concerns related to all kinds of online activities. But I also think that Mobileread is the gold standard of online discussion about ebooks and ebook readers, and has a far more savvy and technically knowledgeable userbase than, say, the Amazon forums or Kindleboards. So I think when posts show up saying things like "OMG, Amazon can spy on my Kindle anytime they want and inform on me to the police!" that those claims need to be deconstructed a bit to decrease FUD rather than spreading it.

I think the main point here was hit on the head upthread -- Amazon hasn't made any secret that it logs and uploads certain information. It's in the ToS for the Kindle and the general Amazon privacy policy. The time to look into these things, for those who are concerned, is before you buy, not after. If you really can't cope, then a network-enabled e-Reader is not for you.

[6charlong]

Is the real concern here that Amazon will identify books with the DRM removed and take some RIAA style action against people who do that?

[softshell]

in general i think it's a pretty scary notion that they've literally collected all this info on me, continue to have access to my location on the planet, and have explicitly stated that they can and will report me to the police if called upon to do so.

nice points by whitearrow on the context of their disclaimer though.

maybe i'll just flood my kindle with pirated books and then when the cops knock on my door i'll just answer 'what took you so long?' (like Newman on Seinfeld when they kindap that dog

[bwaldron]

Originally Posted by 6charlong

Is the real concern here that Amazon will identify books with the DRM removed and take some RIAA style action against people who do that?

That would be corporate suicide.

[whitearrow]

Originally Posted by bwaldron

That would be corporate suicide.

Yeah, it would. And Amazon, unlike the RIAA, isn't the copyright holder (or their agent), and has no power to sue for copyright infringement anyway. Amazon would have to inform the copyright holder, you know, those publishers with whom they often have pretty dodgy relationships. They would be hung out to dry if they ever did this.

[6charlong]

Originally Posted by whitearrow

Yeah, it would. And Amazon, unlike the RIAA, isn't the copyright holder (or their agent), and has no power to sue for copyright infringement anyway. Amazon would have to inform the copyright holder, you know, those publishers with whom they often have pretty dodgy relationships. They would be hung out to dry if they ever did this.

Unless they were responding to a court order. I was thinking about the situation in the US when the Bush Administration demanded a list of who borrowed certain books from libraries throughout America. Or a search comparing the copyrighted books on our Kindles against the books we bought from Amazon, since Amazon is the only place you can get AZW encrypted books.

I hope this never happens but I'm just wondering if the possibility of it isn't a concern.