Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I don't mind being called a Satanist, but my Satanist friends tell me it's not accurate and that I'm just trolling for attention if I use the label. (And they get really annoyed when told that Satanism is a branch of Discordianism. Well, the LaVeyans do. The theistic ones tend to just roll their eyes.)

But certainly, you're free to think of me as a Satanist. I'm a lot more similar to the theistic Satanists than the LaVeyan atheist variety.

Side question: do you think Satanists shouldn't have the same legal rights to freedom to practice their religion as other religions do?

A satanist is an interesting type. So this is a kind of person that has a morality which only includes himself (or herself). He makes the deal with Satan because he believes that he will be aided in whatever he may desire. Its profitable right? Sure satanists have friends too. But if the satanist perceives that by betraying or murdering his friend he may succeed to a more powerful or interesting state he'll take it. A Satanist will proceed through life until the very end, and with glee thinking that hes made the great choice above all those other fools. He may die with a smug smile thinking nothing of the damage he may have inflicted. The Satanist practices crushing any sense of guilt within himself when seeing pain that others feel or when knowingly committing wrong. If that Satanist succeeds in destroying his natural feelings he becomes a monster... ah.... but what happens when he awakes...after death... deep in the black pit ....burning away... crisping away, oh its not flesh thats burning its the soul and the knowledge that youre not with God anymore, how could you be, and what a wrong choice that was. Hell, its not like you can even celebrate with the Devil because you realize hes also burning, burning with rage, torment and terror that there is and can be no victory. You see that all the devil wants is for others to feel the same sense of despair he does, never ending. Endless. And then you know how you've been duped. There was no victory to be gained after all that. You feel burning away in endless torment... what silly little fool you were in life....

Hmmff... how pathetic all those little witches and wizards and fancy dress satanists seem now.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

But that is the superstructure of my moral code, not the simple statement of atheism.

As noted above, I agree that the moral code requires energy to explore and maintain. I also agree that those who give their moral code thought expend more energy than those who don't.

Graham

A personality built on the foundations of atheistic belief is always in danger of crumbling and having to be reformed. Its in the reforming that the danger occurs.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

A personality built on the foundations of atheistic belief is always in danger of crumbling and having to be reformed.

Why?

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Its in the reforming that the danger occurs.

Again, why?

Graham

[weateallthepies]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

A personality built on the foundations of atheistic belief is always in danger of crumbling and having to be reformed. Its in the reforming that the danger occurs.

What is atheistic belief? The only thing that unites atheists is their lack of belief in a god or gods. What are these other beliefs that I've built my life on?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

A satanist is an interesting type. So this is a kind of person that has a morality which only includes himself (or herself).

No, Satanists are not solipsists. Many of them are hardcore rationalists. They are aware they live in a society with other people, and they want that life to be pleasant, so some level of care towards others is required, because people tend to reciprocate.

Also, being a jerk takes energy; it's wasteful if it doesn't get you anything you want. Most Satanists are polite & friendly; it's just *easier* to live that way.

He makes the deal with Satan because he believes that he will be aided in whatever he may desire.

LaVeyan Satanists are atheistic; they don't believe "Satan" is an actual entity. They believe "Satan" is a meme, a concept that describes a certain attitude towards life. (In much the same way that a "communist" doesn't believe that "Commune" is a person.)

Among the theistic ones, who do "make deals" with their gods... how is that different from the deal *you* made with your god, "I'll follow your rules so you promise not to have me tortured?"

Its profitable right? Sure satanists have friends too. But if the satanist perceives that by betraying or murdering his friend he may succeed to a more powerful or interesting state he'll take it.

Do you have evidence for this, or are you extrapolating based on what you think Satanism involves?

Check our prisons. *Lots* more Christian murderers than Satanist murderers. In fact, the Church of Satan doesn't allow criminals of any sort to join.

but what happens when he awakes...after death... deep in the black pit ....burning away... crisping away, oh its not flesh thats burning its the soul and the knowledge that youre not with God anymore, how could you be, and what a wrong choice that was.

Again, any evidence other than "your sect of Christianity says this is what happens?"

And if that's all you've got, why should anyone believe you?

Hmmff... how pathetic all those little witches and wizards and fancy dress satanists seem now.

"Now?" Or in some hypothetical future you've imagined but haven't bothered to explain why anyone else should believe will happen?

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

Why?



Again, why?

Graham

Well its like the old question... If you had the chance to kill Hitler before he instituted the Holocaust, would you take it?

Well theres a moral conundrum. So if you take it you'll end up saving all those people and that evil possibly won't happen. However the act of taking another persons life is clearly wrong. The atheist will find it easier (and this is an extreme example, but serves the point) to modify that part about killing to not count in this case. From there on its a slippery slope. I mean why not do it again if the perceived advantages out weigh the costs. But the believer in God realizes that there is something else beyond his point of view to consider. And God himself has no point of view. It is up to God to determine whether to take Hitlers life or not.

So to simplify, the atheist believes that his or her point of view is adequate to determine what is the greater good and takes moral action accordingly. The believer in God does not. To add to this description we could say that the theoretical Satanist narrows their point of view to the slimmest point, that is... there own self. They take moral action in situations that arise, accordingly. Obviously thats an extreme state to be in and relatively few go there. It could be akin to say... malignant narcisissim

[Graham]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

The atheist will find it easier (and this is an extreme example, but serves the point) to modify that part about killing to not count in this case.

OK, if I understand it, your argument is that the true believer in a punitive God with an infernal afterlife would be less likely to break the moral code on the grounds of self-interest.

I have to go out now, so I'll leave it to others to debate that, as on first glance that seems reasonably sound.

Graham

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

No, Satanists are not solipsists. Many of them are hardcore rationalists. They are aware they live in a society with other people, and they want that life to be pleasant, so some level of care towards others is required, because people tend to reciprocate.

Also, being a jerk takes energy; it's wasteful if it doesn't get you anything you want. Most Satanists are polite & friendly; it's just *easier* to live that way.



LaVeyan Satanists are atheistic; they don't believe "Satan" is an actual entity. They believe "Satan" is a meme, a concept that describes a certain attitude towards life. (In much the same way that a "communist" doesn't believe that "Commune" is a person.)

Among the theistic ones, who do "make deals" with their gods... how is that different from the deal *you* made with your god, "I'll follow your rules so you promise not to have me tortured?"



Do you have evidence for this, or are you extrapolating based on what you think Satanism involves?

Check our prisons. *Lots* more Christian murderers than Satanist murderers. In fact, the Church of Satan doesn't allow criminals of any sort to join.



Again, any evidence other than "your sect of Christianity says this is what happens?"

And if that's all you've got, why should anyone believe you?



"Now?" Or in some hypothetical future you've imagined but haven't bothered to explain why anyone else should believe will happen?

You're just playing with words... If you're a satanist but you call yourself a christian you're still a satanist. However in your first point it sounded right. Yeah your friends are mainly taking actions based on what they feel is right for themselves and their prospects.

Like you said I quote "They are aware they live in a society with other people, and they want that life to be pleasant, so some level of care towards others is required, because people tend to reciprocate." ..... and "Also, being a jerk takes energy; it's wasteful if it doesn't get you anything you want. Most Satanists are polite & friendly; it's just *easier* to live that way."

Yes that sounds like Satanists. If you can't see whats wrong with that..... think again sunny boy.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Well its like the old question... If you had the chance to kill Hitler before he instituted the Holocaust, would you take it?
...
And God himself has no point of view. It is up to God to determine whether to take Hitlers life or not.

And the fact that he didn't, indicates that he condoned all the murders committed by Hitler and in his name. How is this a just and loving god?

[mike_bike_kite]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

What definition are you using for "outdated?" And what counts as "detriment?" So far, I haven't seen any indication that terrazoids is a fundamentalist by that definition.

Outdated: Stone age man's first belief system was likely to be Animism, then magic, then religions with multiple gods and then religions with a single god. Christianity appeared 2000 years ago while science really only came into it's own during the Enlightenment of the 17C. In the UK, religion as a belief system has almost disappeared though there may be some that truly "believe". It actually shocked us to learn that parts of the USA were still wanting to teach creationism in schools. That's why I said outdated.

Detriment: I know nothing of terrazoids real life so I'll only comment on what I've seen in this thread. From his first post here he has been put down, argued with and subjected to ridicule. All of it deserved. This single thread will most likely taint any future activity on this forum. I'd say that's to his detriment.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

OK, if I understand it, your argument is that the true believer in a punitive God with an infernal afterlife would be less likely to break the moral code on the grounds of self-interest.

I have to go out now, so I'll leave it to others to debate that, as on first glance that seems reasonably sound.

Graham

No you're not quite getting it, because hes humble enough to realize that his own point of view is unimportant beside that of Gods. He puts his faith in God, literally. He also wants to feel that disinterested love that god represents. He wants to join with something greater than himself.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

You're just playing with words... If you're a satanist but you call yourself a christian you're still a satanist.

How do you define "satanist?"

However in your first point it sounded right. Yeah your friends are mainly taking actions based on what they feel is right for themselves and their prospects.

Like you said I quote "They are aware they live in a society with other people, and they want that life to be pleasant, so some level of care towards others is required, because people tend to reciprocate." ..... and "Also, being a jerk takes energy; it's wasteful if it doesn't get you anything you want. Most Satanists are polite & friendly; it's just *easier* to live that way."

Yes that sounds like Satanists. If you can't see whats wrong with that..... think again sunny boy.

Sunny girl. More or less.

And please... point out what's wrong with that. Because I find it a lot easier to deal with than people who think they'll be rewarded in the afterlife so it's okay for them to be offensive jerks in this one.

Did you not make a deal with a deity to act how he wanted, in order to get away from eternal torture?

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by mike_bike_kite

Outdated: Stone age man's first belief system was likely to be Animism, then magic, then religions with multiple gods and then religions with a single god. Christianity appeared 2000 years ago while science really only came into it's own during the Enlightenment of the 17C. In the UK, religion as a belief system has almost disappeared though there may be some that truly "believe". It actually shocked us to learn that parts of the USA were still wanting to teach creationism in schools. That's why I said outdated.

Detriment: I know nothing of terrazoids real life so I'll only comment on what I've seen in this thread. From his first post here he has been put down, argued with and subjected to ridicule. All of it deserved. This single thread will most likely taint any future activity on this forum. I'd say that's to his detriment.

Gee thats sweet and concise.... You just got the whole world worked out dont ya...

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

How do you define "satanist?"



Sunny girl. More or less.

And please... point out what's wrong with that. Because I find it a lot easier to deal with than people who think they'll be rewarded in the afterlife so it's okay for them to be offensive jerks in this one.

Did you not make a deal with a deity to act how he wanted, in order to get away from eternal torture?

Sorry ... sunny girl.. Anyway whats wrong with it is that you'll never know real love in your life or friendship. I'm not just talking about love for a person either. Your focus is yourself and you only take action based on what thats going to get you. When a person loves, and maybe you've really experienced this, they love DESPITE themselves. There is a distinction there and I hope you find it.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And the fact that he didn't, indicates that he condoned all the murders committed by Hitler and in his name. How is this a just and loving god?

Its not for us to know this. Its hard, to understand. Remember Hitler chose to create these events and managed to convince others to help him. God certainly didn't want this. I don't think.