Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear - Page 47

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Has anyone's opinion of atheist zealotry changed over the course of this thread?

Does anyone want to cut Dawkins a bit more slack now it's been demonstrated what he's up against?

I think this has confirmed to me that meeting the arguments head on only leads to conflict. Atheists need to demonstrate quietly by their words and forcefully through their deeds that theirs are reasonable beliefs and that they are not at odds with living by a moral code shared by those of faith.

Graham

Thats right the evidence is in the deeds. But so far nobodys actually laid down a good a justification for atheism. You all are in some private club where you don't need to oh because its so self evident.... I think its because you're scared of the issue. Atheism suits your lifestyle... hmm better not touch anything...

sweevo · 09-22-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

what i need you to do is go and investigate the evidence yourself.

Sure. Just after you provide any evidence. You have not provided any.

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

It'd be a difficult experiment to prove unambiguously. Show a photo of a man and a woman-- ask zoid which he/she finds more attractive-- he/she picks the man-- well, that just means that zoid might be either a woman or an anti-gay marriage evangelical pastor. Plus, you'd have to include a photo of a little boy, just in case zoid is a Catholic priest.

hmmm real nasty... nice stuff Ardegee making those chains stronger I see...

sweevo · 09-22-2010, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

But so far nobodys actually laid down a good a justification for atheism.

The utter lack of evidence for the existence of pixies is a good justification not to believe in pixies. Same with gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

You all are in some private club where you don't need to oh because its so self evident....

No, we don't need to because the burden of proof is on YOU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I think its because you're scared of the issue. Atheism suits your lifestyle... hmm better not touch anything...

Ad hominem.

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweevo

Sure. Just after you provide any evidence. You have not provided any.

I'll just keep referring you back the previous post see if you can break out of that circle you're going round in. If this was string theory, you're question would be kinda like a zero dimensional spot.

HarryT · 09-22-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Thats right the evidence is in the deeds. But so far nobodys actually laid down a good a justification for atheism.

Atheism does not require justification; it's not a faith, but the absence of a faith. It's like saying "I don't believe in the Easter Bunny". I don't have to provide proof of the non-existence of the Easter Bunny to justify that claim; if you want me to believe that the EB does exist, it's up to you to provide evidence to persuade me.

TGS · 09-22-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Has anyone's opinion of atheist zealotry changed over the course of this thread?

Does anyone want to cut Dawkins a bit more slack now it's been demonstrated what he's up against?

I think this has confirmed to me that meeting the arguments head on only leads to conflict. Atheists need to demonstrate quietly by their words and forcefully through their deeds that theirs are reasonable beliefs and that they are not at odds with living by a moral code shared by those of faith.

Graham

The main problem for me with Dawkins' arguments are that they are put by Dawkins. He does come over as a bumptious, arrogant, intolerant hysteric. I understand a bit better why he might be like that - if, for example he is encountering folks like terrazoids all the time. But understanding why he's like that doesn't make him not like that.

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGS

The main problem for me with Dawkins' arguments are that they are put by Dawkins. He does come over as a bumptious, arrogant, intolerant hysteric. I understand a bit better why he might be like that - if, for example he is encountering folks like terrazoids all the time. But understanding why he's like that doesn't make him not like that.

Actually I've read some of his books and I like them. Yeah sometimes he is a bit arrogant but he believes something deeply and thats good. He can lay it on the line why he thinks he doesn't need Christianity.

Graham · 09-22-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Thats right the evidence is in the deeds. But so far nobodys actually laid down a good a justification for atheism. You all are in some private club where you don't need to oh because its so self evident.... I think its because you're scared of the issue. Atheism suits your lifestyle... hmm better not touch anything...

I can justify atheism in the following way:

If I subscribe to faith in a God with the power to support and forgive me I can hand over a measure of responsibility for my actions. If I subscribe to a faith that lays down sacred strictures, I can replace thought with obedience, even if led down an immoral path. If I subscribe to a faith that offers an afterlife, I can ignore suffering in this life with the promise of happiness in the next.

By choosing not to hold those beliefs, I am forced to take full responsibility for my actions here and now. I must hold myself to account.

Atheism is not the easy option you make out. However, introspection (of the sort that you are recommending) and an assessment of the evidence for the presence of a deity lead me to a realisation that it is likely to be the correct choice.

Graham

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Atheism does not require justification; it's not a faith, but the absence of a faith. It's like saying "I don't believe in the Easter Bunny". I don't have to provide proof of the non-existence of the Easter Bunny to justify that claim; if you want me to believe that the EB does exist, it's up to you to provide evidence to persuade me.

Didn't mommy ever tell you that the easter bunnies real? Yeah well your culture's telling you that Gods real. Now go find him.

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

I can justify atheism in the following way:

If I subscribe to faith in a God with the power to support and forgive me I can hand over a measure of responsibility for my actions. If I subscribe to a faith that lays down sacred strictures, I can replace thought with obedience, even if led down an immoral path. If I subscribe to a faith that offers an afterlife, I can ignore suffering in this life with the promise of happiness in the next.

By choosing not to hold those beliefs, I am forced to take full responsibility for my actions here and now. I must hold myself to account.

Atheism is not the easy option you make out. However, introspection (of the sort that you are recommending) and an assessment of the evidence for the presence of a deity lead me to a realisation that it is likely to be the correct choice.

Graham

No its the other way round. If you're an atheist you're not accountable. Because why hold yourself to account if theres no point. Who are you doing for.

HarryT · 09-22-2010, 12:13 PM

That's just it, terrazoids. I am a scientist. You telling me that God exists has as much weight as my mommy telling me that the Easter Bunny exists - ie very little. The idea that an all-powerful, invisible person is watching me who can break the laws of physics at whim is so unnatural to me that I'm afraid that I would need very convincing evidence to believe it. I've studied the Bible extensively for many years; it's a fascinating cultural artifact, and one of the cornerstones of our society, but I'm afraid that I'm just not convinced by its spiritual message.

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

Terrazoids, have you seen this documentary? I was amazed by it. Even more amazing is that it is just a small part of God's work.

Signs in the Sky - The Star of Bethlehem - Stephen McEveety
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRk4ZBCxO3s

Thx... thats nice...

terrazoids · 09-22-2010, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's just it, terrazoids. I am a scientist. You telling me that God exists has as much weight as my mommy telling me that the Easter Bunny exists - ie very little. The idea that an all-powerful, invisible person is watching me who can break the laws of physics at whim is so unnatural to me that I'm afraid that I would need very convincing evidence to believe it. I've studied the Bible extensively for many years; it's a fascinating cultural artifact, and one of the cornerstones of our society, but I'm afraid that I'm just not convinced by its spiritual message.

Fine.. Keep going. But whoever said God was a person or that he was invisible. Maybe the laws of physics don't get broken but they are rules that He operates within like a game...

Lo Zeno · 09-22-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Didn't mommy ever tell you that the easter bunnies real? Yeah well your culture's telling you that Gods real. Now go find him.

My mommy did; I looked for it; I found that it didn't exist; my mother admitted, years later, that it was a lie.

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09-22-2010, 12:13 PM	#702
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	That's just it, terrazoids. I am a scientist. You telling me that God exists has as much weight as my mommy telling me that the Easter Bunny exists - ie very little. The idea that an all-powerful, invisible person is watching me who can break the laws of physics at whim is so unnatural to me that I'm afraid that I would need very convincing evidence to believe it. I've studied the Bible extensively for many years; it's a fascinating cultural artifact, and one of the cornerstones of our society, but I'm afraid that I'm just not convinced by its spiritual message.