Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[Graham]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

But slavery is wrong, and countries based on Buddhism seem to have a lot of it.

Let's examine that.

Countries which wikipedia notes as having problems with slavery either now or within the last few years:

Sudan: Muslim/Christian.
China: Buddhist/Taoist.
Nepal: Hindu.
India: Hindu/Muslim.
Brazil: Christianity.
Mauritania: Muslim.
Niger: Muslim.
Iraq: Muslim.
Ivory Coast: Muslim/Christian.
Haiti: Christian.

Also note this quote:

Illegal enslavement of agricultural labor persists in Florida in the United States. The Modern-Day Slavery Museum documents seven cases, involving over 1,000 people kept in slavery, of farm labor servitude successfully prosecuted in the US courts there in the past fifteen years. Singling out Florida may give a false impression, since, in the 1980s, cases involving agricultural slavery in the USA were prosecuted across the Southeast states

The list above isn't comprehensive, of course, and the countries notorious for sex-trafficking need to be added, but I think it's clear that it isn't the predominant religion which encourages slavery, but the economic conditions and historical context.

Graham

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

No way... Commies are godless athiests. It says so right there in old Marx...

Christian communism goes back long before Marx, and right up to the present.
E.g. James Endicott - a christian missionary, who helped set up the Communist Party of China.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I stated earlier that God did not write the bible. Its true that in the ancient world, slavery was widespread. Pauls comment can be understood in light of the culture he lived in at the time. He had an idea that social strife was not the way to solve the worlds problems.

I entirely agree with you, which is why I was asking you what the purpose of your comment was that "Buddha did not intend to do away with slavery". It really would not have crossed anyone's mind in those days that society could exist without slavery, so to condemn either Jesus or Buddha for not speaking out against it is a meaningless argument.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I'm always fascinated by atheists' willingness to claim that the majority of humanity throughout history has been entirely delusional on a matter that affected their lives deeply, rather than accept that their descriptions might be inaccurate.

But if a theist claims to believe in a god who speaks to everybody, and I haven't been spoken to by such a being - doesn't that mean they are just wrong?
Although proving it to them on the basis of anecdotal truth is awkward, they are still wrong in what they claim.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Don't say "faith" when you mean "Christianity." I am deeply religious; religion is, perhaps, the central point around which the rest of my life revolves. People of strong faith who aren't monotheists likely aren't much speaking up because this kind of discussion bores most of them; arguments about whether one particular deity exists are fairly pointless. (I have no aversions to pointless arguments, when I've got time for them.)

Thats what I mean. We can't stay silent when legions of atheists are rising up out of hell to take control of our God fearing society. Geez just look at the way things are going these days. You got young people worshipping an idol who calls herself... 'Lady Gaga' who advocates her own morality for people to follow. Thats what all demons try to do, and look good doing it too! Thats how they get ya. You've got politicians trying to start wars in far off lands cause they greedy for black gold. You've got people trying to get more money than anyone else and coming up with clever schemes to trick honest folk out of there hard earned cash... and laws that back them up too. You got scientists inventing ways to create mutated humans and giant bombs that can kill more than ever before. You got societies of people who think it'd be a good idea to
have plastic surgery to make their faces more like Michael Jacksons ... phew another idol of worship.... Oh I could go on but suffice to say this is Satan's age.

Thats why folks gotta talk more about faith. You don't have to go along with Satan. Theres an alternative you know.... GOD!!!

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

Let's examine that.

Countries which wikipedia notes as having problems with slavery either now or within the last few years:

Sudan: Muslim/Christian.
China: Buddhist/Taoist.
Nepal: Hindu.
India: Hindu/Muslim.
Brazil: Christianity.
Mauritania: Muslim.
Niger: Muslim.
Iraq: Muslim.
Ivory Coast: Muslim/Christian.
Haiti: Christian.

Also note this quote:



The list above isn't comprehensive, of course, and the countries notorious for sex-trafficking need to be added, but I think it's clear that it isn't the predominant religion which encourages slavery, but the economic conditions and historical context.

Graham

Yup i see a lot of Muslim countries there. Not too many christian...

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

Let's examine that.

Countries which wikipedia notes as having problems with slavery either now or within the last few years:

Sudan: Muslim/Christian.
China: Buddhist/Taoist.
Nepal: Hindu.
India: Hindu/Muslim.
Brazil: Christianity.
Mauritania: Muslim.
Niger: Muslim.
Iraq: Muslim.
Ivory Coast: Muslim/Christian.
Haiti: Christian.

Also note this quote:



The list above isn't comprehensive, of course, and the countries notorious for sex-trafficking need to be added, but I think it's clear that it isn't the predominant religion which encourages slavery, but the economic conditions and historical context.

Graham

Look Buddhas pretty out of date now and we're not even sure he really existed. People could of just made it up. I say go with Jesus, its the better option.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Your belief that slavery is wrong is actually at odds with what the Bible teaches, terrazoids. Eg, in Ephesians 6:5-9, Paul urges slaves to obey their masters in the same way that they obey Christ, while Colossians 4:1 tells slave owners to treat their slaves justly. But nowhere - not once - is their any condemnation of slavery.

The belief that slavery is wrong has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

I hate to nit-pick here, Harry, but although your contention about the teaching of the Bible is correct as concerns slavery; the actual authorship of both Ephesians and Colossians are disputed by modern Bible scholars. About half of them believe them to be from the hand of Paul, while the other half argue for authorship by an anonymous author using Paul's name. I know this has little to do with your basic premise. I just thought I'd throw that in.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Yup i see a lot of Muslim countries there. Not too many christian...

Including the States, which was dropped from your quote and which has more cases of slavery reported in the wiki article than China, the list has 6 Muslim and 5 Christian. But as I said, that's irrelevant. It's the economic conditions that encourage slavery, not the predominant religion.

Graham

[terrazoids]

Why don't we hear some people talk about their faith other than me for a change. Maybe others have a different take on what god means to them.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

But if a theist claims to believe in a god who speaks to everybody, and I haven't been spoken to by such a being - doesn't that mean they are just wrong?
Although proving it to them on the basis of anecdotal truth is awkward, they are still wrong in what they claim.

Possibilities include:
1) You have been spoken to, and weren't paying attention (this is the most common Christian claim; it fits their "god as parent" metaphor),

2) You have been spoken to, and don't have the capacity to perceive the speech (this is what a lot of polytheists believe--deities are everywhere, talking to everyone; not everyone is able to hear them; while most of us don't believe in omnipotent deities, we do tend to believe they can make themselves known to the people they're interested in),

3) You have not been spoken to because terrazoid's god has no interest in contacting you personally, but does speak to terrazoid,

4) Terrazoid's deity does not exist and therefore is not speaking to anyone.

None of these are provable or disprovable in this setting. It is *possible* that 1, 2, or 3 might be provable, on an individual level, by a series of tests that would be so customized as to be useless to draw general conclusions from them. 4 is neither provable nor disprovable and its only purpose as a claim is antagonism. Which is, IMHO, often justifiable; the claim "god loves everyone and therefore has created a hell to punish the people who don't believe the way I claim they're supposed to" is just as pointlessly antagonistic.

[WT Sharpe]

A communist is not necessarily an atheist. As Sparrow pointed out, the early church indeed had a communistic structure. They held all things communally, which is all communism implies. Marxist Communism may be atheistic, but communism in itself is not necessarily so. In like manner, socialists may be atheistic or Christian. The best example that comes to mind of a Christian socialist is Francis Bellamy, who was both a Baptist minister and a Christian Socialist. Just because the Pledge of Allegiance he wrote contained no reference to God does not mean he wasn't a believer as well as a socialist. He may well have not included one because he didn't wish to exclude people who differed from him in religious matters or to make them feel like second-class citizens. Perhaps he took seriously the idea that government shouldn't entwine itself with religion.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Thats what I mean. We can't stay silent when legions of atheists are rising up out of hell to take control of our God fearing society.

Are you under the mistaken impression that I worship the same god you do? YHVH creeps me out.

Geez just look at the way things are going these days. You got young people worshipping an idol who calls herself... 'Lady Gaga' who advocates her own morality for people to follow. Thats what all demons try to do, and look good doing it too!

I don't think Lady Gaga is worshipped, except as a matter of hyperbole. (Although it's not unlikely that she's been sainted by some Discordian cabals. But they canonize new saints every week, so that's not much of a claim.) Also, she can't be an "idol" because she's a living person; she could (hypothetically) be an avatar.

Thats how they get ya. You've got politicians trying to start wars in far off lands cause they greedy for black gold. You've got people trying to get more money than anyone else and coming up with clever schemes to trick honest folk out of there hard earned cash... and laws that back them up too. You got scientists inventing ways to create mutated humans and giant bombs that can kill more than ever before. You got societies of people who think it'd be a good idea to have plastic surgery to make their faces more like Michael Jacksons ... phew another idol of worship.... Oh I could go on but suffice to say this is Satan's age.

HAIL ERIS; indeed do many things come to pass.
What evidence do you have that any of these things are inspired by Satan?

Thats why folks gotta talk more about faith. You don't have to go along with Satan. Theres an alternative you know.... GOD!!!

There are more alternatives than that. But I don't know that alternatives are needed; I tend to get along with Satanists much better than with most Christians. Satanists are rational.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I think I've proved very well the original thesis of this thread.

You certainly have proven my statement in post #11:

"But the overwhelming majority of the religious people chomping at the bit to "debate" and "disprove" evolution and other non-theistic things are pig-ignorant nitwits or slimebag liars or both. Atheists gain their bitterness (if it is there) not from debating with erudite philosophers-- they get if from dealing with hillbillies who say "I ain't come from no monkey, I dun come from Adam and Eve (not Adam and Steve) and they ain't dun bin no big bang an' you gonna die an' burn in hell fur'ever if you don't dun bin turnin' to Jeeeeeeeesus, who diiied foooor yoooouah seeeeens!" It comes from listening to people who couldn't distinguish a quark from a quasar if their lives literally depended on it who come up and tell you how they know more than "all dem gooodles syentyst" and then start quoting the same idiotic creationst talking points that all ignorant sheep get from their ignorant shepards and the wolves that prey on them."

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

You certainly have proven my statement in post #11:

"But the overwhelming majority of the religious people chomping at the bit to "debate" and "disprove" evolution and other non-theistic things are pig-ignorant nitwits or slimebag liars or both. Atheists gain their bitterness (if it is there) not from debating with erudite philosophers-- they get if from dealing with hillbillies who say "I ain't come from no monkey, I dun come from Adam and Eve (not Adam and Steve) and they ain't dun bin no big bang an' you gonna die an' burn in hell fur'ever if you don't dun bin turnin' to Jeeeeeeeesus, who diiied foooor yoooouah seeeeens!" It comes from listening to people who couldn't distinguish a quark from a quasar if their lives literally depended on it who come up and tell you how they know more than "all dem gooodles syentyst" and then start quoting the same idiotic creationst talking points that all ignorant sheep get from their ignorant shepards and the wolves that prey on them."

I sense some real anger there.... Note I didn't set out to disprove evolution. I just want to show how atheists like yourself are full of rage and spite. Scornful of others and unable to hold a decent conversation. I think this thread shows thats partially true.