Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[Donnageddon]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

God is scary.

terrazoids... you just don't get it. From he lack of evidence you provide for her existence, god is as scary as the tooth fairy.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by weateallthepies

Why?

It doesn't require designing, that is the thrust of natural selection. Tiny changes, huge periods of time, environmental pressures, no designer is required.

I don't think there is anything arrogant in pointing out that science appears to contradict religious belief. I thought you didn't mind be challenged or offended?

How does it contradict Intelligent design? You ever played Chess. Tiny changes, situations moving and changing based on causes and effects within a closed environment. heh heh , but the players got an idea for the end. I think its safe to say that God works within a rule based system too. But he created the rules and can play the game. Folks thats what the Old Testament's all about. The New is more important though regarding what people on this thread need.

[weateallthepies]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Yes but it needs to be demonstrated how it works, without God. I mean how do we go from bits of clay to Gorillas. No ones ever succeeded in showing how the process begins.

No they haven't but that doesn't change the original point I was making that natural selection disproves the biblical story of the creation of man.

You might need help with those goalposts soon.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

terrazoids... you just don't get it. From he lack of evidence you provide for her existence, god is as scary as the tooth fairy.

No buddy, you don't get it... but don't worry... you will soon enough.

[sweevo]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I think its safe to say that God works within a rule based system too.

Since there's no evidence any gods even exist, let alone the specific one you call "God", that's not a very safe thing to say at all.

As already pointed out evolution disproves the biblical creation myth.

Additionally, it is driven by mutation, the mechanism that also results in horribly deformed babies.

And it results in, for example, horrific parasites. Only a sick, sadistic, twisted designer would come up with those.

[weateallthepies]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

How does it contradict Intelligent design? You ever played Chess. Tiny changes, situations moving and changing based on causes and effects within a closed environment. heh heh , but the players got an idea for the end. I think its safe to say that God works within a rule based system too. But he created the rules and can play the game. Folks thats what the Old Testament's all about. The New is more important though regarding what people on this thread need.

This just moves us into the cherry picker's favourite line that it's "just a metaphor" whilst on the other hand asking us to accept other passages as fact.

How do you know which is which?

[Lo Zeno]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I'm chuckling. In the far east, they've got it a ll wrong. Meditation, what a waste of time!! Thats why fortunately we've been sending missionaries over there for a while now. And guess what, its starting to work! Still got a problem with communists though. And its no surprise that communism found it easier to take root in a godless society than anywhere else. That may be one of the biggest threats in the future, that and the perverted religion... you know the one I mean.

Uhm.
You know, you said that atheism isn't older than your religion.
They told you "in the far east, for example, there were forms of atheism long before the western monotheistic religions formed"
You say "But in the far east they have it all wrong!!!!!111!1!!"

Ehrm... that doesn't put you under a good light, you know. Why do they have it all wrong? Why would meditation be a waste of time (especially considering that even St. Augustin promoted meditation in his writings as a mean to hear God's voice)?
Who are you to decide who has it wrong and who has it right?
And who are you to decide that a religion is perverted?

No, really, I want to know: who the hell do you think you are?
You said that "God revealed himself many times to people". I'll reveal to you that:
-Zeus revealed himself to _many women, and impregnated them_
-Allah revealed himself to Muhammad
-Horus revealed himself to many men and women, and to a dozen or so Pharaoh
-Thor spoke face-to-face to _three thousand soldiers_
-Mithras revealed himself to _thousands of people_ in the Roman empire, he was born from a virgin about one century before Christ, he had 12 apostoles and he resurrected after three days.
-Several flavours of Jesus revealed themselves to 20 or so different Christian branches and sects (you know, catholics, lutherans, mormons, Jeovah's witnesses and so on, too many to list them) and each time each Jesus said something that contradicted what was said to others
-The Indu gods speak everyday to many people, there's a statue of Shiva that drinks milk when you place the cup under its chin as an offer (it's been recorded on film and you can go and see it with your eyes in Delhi if you don't believe, I have been there and seen it), and there are about 20 prophets in India who claim to see their gods speak to them.

Now, how do I decide WHO is lying and WHO is saying the truth?

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

Yes, the term "atheism" is that recent, but the concepts go way back.

Graham

Well youre just extending information to fit into categories. Its like when muslims say that christianity and Judaism is part of their religion!

[Lo Zeno]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Well youre just extending information to fit into categories. Its like when muslims say that christianity and Judaism is part of their religion!

No, he is using the term for what it means:
A-theism: believe that the world exists without a God
That belief is as old as the Chinese empire.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Lo Zeno

Uhm.
You know, you said that atheism isn't older than your religion.
They told you "in the far east, for example, there were forms of atheism long before the western monotheistic religions formed"
You say "But in the far east they have it all wrong!!!!!111!1!!"

Ehrm... that doesn't put you under a good light, you know. Why do they have it all wrong? Why would meditation be a waste of time (especially considering that even St. Augustin promoted meditation in his writings as a mean to hear God's voice)?
Who are you to decide who has it wrong and who has it right?
And who are you to decide that a religion is perverted?

No, really, I want to know: who the hell do you think you are?
You said that "God revealed himself many times to people". I'll reveal to you that:
-Zeus revealed himself to _many women, and impregnated them_
-Allah revealed himself to Muhammad
-Horus revealed himself to many men and women, and to a dozen or so Pharaoh
-Thor spoke face-to-face to _three thousand soldiers_
-Mithras revealed himself to _thousands of people_ in the Roman empire, he was born from a virgin about one century before Christ, he had 12 apostoles and he resurrected after three days.
-Several flavours of Jesus revealed themselves to 20 or so different Christian branches and sects (you know, catholics, lutherans, mormons, Jeovah's witnesses and so on, too many to list them) and each time each Jesus said something that contradicted what was said to others
-The Indu gods speak everyday to many people, there's a statue of Shiva that drinks milk when you place the cup under its chin as an offer (it's been recorded on film and you can go and see it with your eyes in Delhi if you don't believe, I have been there and seen it), and there are about 20 prophets in India who claim to see their gods speak to them.

Now, how do I decide WHO is lying and WHO is saying the truth?

You need to get out and start helping other people without condition. Then you'll know whos lying and whos telling the truth.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Lo Zeno

No, he is using the term for what it means:
A-theism: believe that the world exists without a God
That belief is as old as the Chinese empire.

So check out Chinese history then. They started off as tribes. And theres never been atheist tribes.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by sweevo

Since there's no evidence any gods even exist, let alone the specific one you call "God", that's not a very safe thing to say at all.

As already pointed out evolution disproves the biblical creation myth.

Additionally, it is driven by mutation, the mechanism that also results in horribly deformed babies.

And it results in, for example, horrific parasites. Only a sick, sadistic, twisted designer would come up with those.

No my position is the safe one. What if you're wrong? Ever think of that? Pretty bad price to pay. Also youre not in a position to judge whether God is a sick or twisted designer as you have no other examples of universes other than this one.

[Lo Zeno]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

You need to get out and start helping other people without condition. Then you'll know whos lying and whos telling the truth.

You know that Christians aren't the only one who send out missionaries and "do good onto others", don't you?

So check out Chinese history then. They started off as tribes. And theres never been atheist tribes.

Did you read the word Empire that I wrote? No?
Did you read about Chinese philosophy? No?
Did you know that the Greek, too, started out as tribes, yet they developed the roots of Western philosophy? No?
Did you know that in Palestine the Hebrew were tribes of herders too, and despite that the Bible claims that God chose them as their favourite people?
No?
I guess you don't.

[sweevo]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

So check out Chinese history then. They started off as tribes. And theres never been atheist tribes.

Of course, lack of belief in any gods predates belief in any gods.

Nevertheless, we have demonstrated that your claim that atheism is newer than your religion is false.

Recap:

Evidence any gods exist: zero.

Evidence the specific god you were taught to believe in exist: zero.

You don't know that this god exists - you merely believe it.

[Graham]

Let's reflect on this thread so far. Since Terrazoids has been largely unsupported, the challenges to his/her faith have tended to outweigh the challenges to atheism, but Terrazoids' armour of faith has proved very hard to shift, so the zealotry has grown more aggressive on the atheist side.

There's little sign though that aggressive atheist zealotry will ever shift Terrazoids' faith. By extrapolation, perhaps we can now agree that atheist zealotry is a heavy cross to bear?

But could a myriad small quiet voices of reason fare any better?

Graham