Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by sweevo

This analogy is more appropriate:

In an article titled "Is There a God?" commissioned, but never published, by Illustrated magazine in 1952, Bertrand Russell wrote:

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

Which is very similar to the basis of the FSM.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Do check it out, it's quite fascinating. Harry and ShortNCuddlyAm seemed to find it so. Any kind of quiz like that has to be taken with a grain or two of salt, but it is better than most.

Yep, I just went through it quickly took two hits.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

It's when the traditional attributes of God are ascribed to the proposed Creator that contradictions arise. Attributes such as omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence have long posed a problem for believers. In a quote ascribed to Epicurus (341–270 B.C.E.), the problem of evil is summed up thus:

There are no contradictions in the way God describes himself. There certainly are in the way some crackpots throughout time have tried to assert their own opinions about God. But I try to ignore them.

[WT Sharpe]

There is no way to prove the existence or non-existence of a Creator, but neither is there any reason to assume that if this universe has one that said creator is in any way related to the myriads of deities created by humans over the centuries.

There is a way of judging scriptures supposedly inspired by any one of these deities, however. It is to examine them with an open and discerning mind. Many of us have come to the decision that the Christian God is unfeasible only after long years of prayerfully searching the scriptures to see if these things be true. We studied to show ourselves approved only to come away finding the faith of our childhood shattered by revelations we never sought nor desired to find in the Bible.

Here are just a few.

In Numbers chapter 31, verses 17 and 18, Moses tells his officers to:

........kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Later in that same chapter we see that a certain portion of these virgins were given to the Levites and the priests for a "tithe." Verse 31 of that same chapter:

........as the LORD commanded Moses.

Most people would consider such atrocities to be criminal acts. Certainly those men, women and children who found themselves on the receiving end of those actions would not have considered them to have originated in the heart of a loving God. But far from being an isolated incident, this God-sanctioned method of obtaining females by force to be used as breeding stock was also used by the Israelites to obtain women for the tribe of Benjamin. In Judges chapter 21 verses 6, 7, 10 through 12, and 14, we read:

.....And the children of Israel repented them for Benjamin their brother, and said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain....

Verse 10:

.....And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh gilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh gilead four thousand young virgins....

Verse 14:

.....And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh gilead....

Where did they get the idea that women could be had as booty? Perhaps the "voice of God" in Deuteronomy chapter 21 verses 10 through 13:

.....When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

Did you notice that the woman's feelings aren't even considered here? Here is divine sanction for male domination of the most physical and absolute kind! Here is divine justification for rape! For if the woman has no say in the matter, all the pretending in the world won't make it otherwise!

I wouldn't dare to say that God inspired this book; for if, indeed, there is a Supreme Intelligence ruling over the universe, such a deity may not take kindly to the accusation!

And what of the "Test of Adultry" in Numbers chapter 5? This is one of the most reckless and dangerous passages in the entire Bible. According to this chapter, if a man wants to find out if his wife is cheating on him, all he has to do is take her to the priest. The priest then scrapes some dirt off the temple floor, mixes it with some holy water, and then pronounces a curse over it. The woman is then made to drink this vile potion. If drinking this filthy and revolting concoction causes sickness, her guilt is proven. (And the Bible considers adultery a capital offense!) Interestingly enough, the Bible says that if she has not been fooling around, she'll get pregnant!

Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself, beginning with verses 11 through 13 of the 5th chapter of Numbers:

.....And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband....

Verse 14:

.....And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife....

Verse 15:

.....Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest....

Continuing with verse 17:

.....And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water....

Down to verses 27 and 28:

.....And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

Verse 31:

.....Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

Notice the inequality of this passage? If the woman is deemed guilty, she must pay the price. And the Biblical penalty for adultery is death. Leviticus chapter 20 verse 10:

........the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

If, however, she is innocent, and yet the man has subjected her to a humiliating ritual that could have cost her life (just to satisfy his own suspicious mind), he gets off scot free.

Remember: whosoever disagrees with these things is disagreeing with the Bible!

Whoever disagrees with human sacrifice is disagreeing with Leviticus chapter 27 verses 28 and 29:

........no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

In obedience to this scripture, a fellow named Jephthah offered his daughter as a burnt offering unto Jehovah. The gruesome tale begins with verse 30 of Judges chapter 11:

.....And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

Verse 34:

.....And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him....

Verse 39:

.....And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed....

What a marvelous, holy man this was! The author of Hebrews was so impressed with Jephthah that he remembered him in Hebrews chapter 11, the "faith" chapter, verses 32 and 38, as one of those people:

.........of whom the world was not worthy....

In the light of such atrocities as these, is there any wonder as to what would prompt an early American patriot to pen these words?

.....Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God.
..........—Thomas Paine (1737-1809), English staymaker, American patriot, pamphleteer, Deist. The Age of Reason.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by recluse

Ardeegee is the reason most people have a problem admitting they are atheists.

terrazoids at least had the decency not to be intentionally offensive.

I was offended as were others apparently.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Great! I've got nothing against books. But its important to divide ideas that are linked to Truth from ideas which are merely ideas. ....

Ummm, no. There is no special reference point. It's a level playing field.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

...


some of the most amoral and hypocritical people I have known are the biggest bible thumpers around

That's because they are "forgiven"

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

What a marvelous, holy man this was! The author of Hebrews was so impressed with Jephthah that he remembered him in Hebrews chapter 11, the "faith" chapter, verses 32 and 38, as one of those people:

Don't forget the classic Genesis Chapter 19, in which God's Man Lot-- rather than allow the Sodomites to molest his angel visitors-- offers to let an angry mob gang-rape his two virgin daughters.

Or the perils of saying "go up, you baldhead."



The problem for believers isn't that non-believers haven't read the bible-- it is that they have.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I've forgotten where you stand in this thread. Are you an atheist? Yeah well my learnings are inconsequential, got a little bit of Buddha, Mahomet. Read some Confucius here and there. Learned a little about the Tao and those mushrooms. Then in my mind wanderings I stumbled upon gospels not included in the book, and onwards learned about the Orphic sects. Tell you what, when I was a kid i loved greek myths...

actually I haven't said where I stand in this thread. on any issue I stand for truth and knowledge.

so, in other words, you have some extremely limited readings on other religions? do yourself a favor. get a copy of the "Epic of Gligamesh" and read it. it's quite short, it won't take you very long at all. as you are reading it note all the similarities to stories that you should find familiar from the bible. then make note of when it was written.

[sweevo]

A fundie once informed me that Satan created the stories of Gilgamesh, Horus, Mithras etc. before the real events happened, to fool us.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by sweevo

A fundie once informed me that Satan created the stories of Gilgamesh, Horus, Mithras etc. before the real events happened, to fool us.

Young Earth Creationists Henry Morris used to say that the concept of evolution was cooked up by Nimrod and Satan in the Tower of Babel. I think I've read it in creationist literature in the past, but here's a version of it via google:

http://www.libertyfwb.org/evolution.html

Which-- somehow-- reminded me of the joy that is Chick Tracts:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractli...nguage=English

[badgoodDeb]

Hey -- I haven't read all the threads between my last post and now, (I will tomorrow, promise!) so if this no longer fits where the thread has landed, then my apologies.


@ardeegee
Thanks for the pointers to Dan Barker. I read some of it -- and then googles his name to find his current status. Guess he hasn't changed his mind.

But that search brought up a site with interesting answers to many of the objections Barker and others raise. In fact, near the bottom of the page I give below, there is some discussion of the "daughter as human sacrifice" which was mentioned in this thread. I found it quite interesting!

http://www.tektonics.org/af/barkerd01.html

[sweevo]

The 10 Most Awesomely Insane Jack Chick Mini-Comics:

http://www.toplessrobot.com/2008/09/...f_hellfire.php

And then there's his masterpiece, "Lisa". Prepare to be repulsed:

http://www.angelfire.com/on/3angels/lisa.html

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

But that search brought up a site with interesting answers to many of the objections Barker and others raise. In fact, near the bottom of the page I give below, there is some discussion of the "daughter as human sacrifice" which was mentioned in this thread. I found it quite interesting!

http://www.tektonics.org/af/barkerd01.html

Yeah, I'm well familiar with apologetics-- I simply conciser the source material beneath apologizing for. It is desperate attempts to rationalize the horrible from in a more civilized world so that you can pretend that it really wasn't all that horrible. Myself, I simply choose to toss out the bathwater and find that there is almost no baby.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

some of the most amoral and hypocritical people I have known are the biggest bible thumpers around

Brand new one on the front page of CNN.com tonight:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/21/...ex.html?hpt=T1