Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

what exactly have you read?



I didn't say I was a writer. I said I was internationally known and award winning. see how easy it is to imply a level of expertise that doesn't exist? I skimmed through the quite frankly B.S. that was on that site. he sounds like a mouthpiece for China that would like everyone to believe thusly



yeah I know, I used to hang around on a lot of Pagan boards and we would get the same spiel

Well it sounds to me like you didn't read it. Like you said you just skimmed it. I can see you already had your own opinion. There's other research on the same subject if you don't like that guy. But hey.. he says hes internationally known.. gotta count for something right.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

how quickly you forget your old testament



some of the most amoral and hypocritical people I have known are the biggest bible thumpers around

examples please... of the first part

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by sweevo

terrazoids, why do YOU act morally? is it just your religious beliefs that cause you to do so? If you stopped believing in any gods, would you still act morally? Why?

This is also one of the very, very, very common comments by Christians-- that if you didn't believe in God, you would be free to murder, rape, and steal as much as you want. If the only thing holding you back from doing those things is the fear of punishment from skydaddy, and I hold back from doing those things because I don't want to, even though I am firmly convinced that nobody is watching and nobody is keeping score, which of us in more moral?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ism-secularism

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

This is also one of the very, very, very common comments by Christians-- that if you didn't believe in God, you would be free to murder, rape, and steal as much as you want. If the only thing holding you back from doing those things is the fear of punishment from skydaddy, and I hold back from doing those things because I don't want to, even though I am firmly convinced that nobody is watching and nobody is keeping score, which of us in more moral?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ism-secularism

I'd like to reply to this in detail because its more complicated than you might suppose... but I'm a little tired now. I'll try a little later.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

This is also one of the very, very, very common comments by Christians-- that if you didn't believe in God, you would be free to murder, rape, and steal as much as you want. If the only thing holding you back from doing those things is the fear of punishment from skydaddy, and I hold back from doing those things because I don't want to, even though I am firmly convinced that nobody is watching and nobody is keeping score, which of us in more moral?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ism-secularism

It's the old question of whether not robbing a bank has any moral merit if you only abstain from doing it because you know you'll get caught (by the all seing society/God/Whatever).

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

A

Personally, as I've mentioned before, I think people should accept scientific facts and theory when the evidence is such than most reasonable and credible people agree it is correct as far as our understanding can go. Such things and evolution, the big bang, etc etc.

It is only in those areas where science has no answer or the evidence is inconclusive at best or non-existent at worst, that faith should play a part if one so chooses. Such questions as "do we have a soul that lives on after physical death" or "is there a god".

I really don't see why there needs to be conflict between the two.

That's kind of how I see it too - science tries to answer the question "how", and relies on repeatable, demonstrable observations to form theories, which can change as new data is found. Religion tries to answer the question "why", and relies on non-repeatable, personal experience.

They can't disprove each other; science can't disprove the existence of a deity, and religous beliefs should never be used to attempt to discredit science. The Bible is by no means a science book, and I'm convinced that since God created us with minds, He intends us to use them.

[sweevo]

Science can disprove the existence of specific deities.

For example, knowing that the sun is not a first generation star disproves all gods who created the sun before all the (other) stars.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by sweevo

Science can disprove the existence of specific deities.

For example, knowing that the sun is not a first generation star disproves all gods who created the sun before all the (other) stars.

Yeah.. but we're talking about God who created everything. So how does science disprove that?

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I like international types... So which awards did you win? Gee I've read a few books. It'd be hard to name them all.

what books have you read that would outline other belief systems such as zoroaster, The Epic of Gilgamesh, advanced studies on Egyptian or Celtic theologies? you should be able to name a few.

my awards are inconsequential, but are Scholastic, the Army, the Government, Scouting, Search and Rescue, and Employee of the Year at 2 different companies. you know, awards.

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Well it sounds to me like you didn't read it. Like you said you just skimmed it. I can see you already had your own opinion. There's other research on the same subject if you don't like that guy. But hey.. he says hes internationally known.. gotta count for something right.

I read enough to see where the topic was going and to know that I had read it from Chinese anti-Tibetan propaganda.

Originally Posted by terrazoids

examples please... of the first part

well ardeegee gave you one, but here's a bundle; read and weep biblical human sacrifice

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Yeah.. but we're talking about God who created everything. So how does science disprove that?

My Übergod created your God. How do you disprove that?

[sweevo]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Yeah.. but we're talking about God who created everything. So how does science disprove that?

Again: by showing that our sun is not a first generation star, we are disproving the existence of any gods who created the sun before any other stars.

Science does not disprove the notion of non-specific gods, but it does disprove the existence of specific ones.

And "you can't disprove it" also works with pixies and leprechauns.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Laz116

My Übergod created your God. How do you disprove that?

yeah, but my Goddess gave birth to both your Gods! disprove THAT!

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

what books have you read that would outline other belief systems such as zoroaster, The Epic of Gilgamesh, advanced studies on Egyptian or Celtic theologies? you should be able to name a few.

my awards are inconsequential, but are Scholastic, the Army, the Government, Scouting, Search and Rescue, and Employee of the Year at 2 different companies. you know, awards.



I read enough to see where the topic was going and to know that I had read it from Chinese anti-Tibetan propaganda.



well ardeegee gave you one, but here's a bundle; read and weep biblical human sacrifice

I've forgotten where you stand in this thread. Are you an atheist? Yeah well my learnings are inconsequential, got a little bit of Buddha, Mahomet. Read some Confucius here and there. Learned a little about the Tao and those mushrooms. Then in my mind wanderings I stumbled upon gospels not included in the book, and onwards learned about the Orphic sects. Tell you what, when I was a kid i loved greek myths...

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

also your argument about morality just doesn't make any sense. Why would people act morally if they knew they could get an advantage over someone else by being immoral. Whats wrong with getting an advantage over someone else. If your truly an atheist, you'll admit that theres nothing wrong with that.

Atheist doesn't equal amoral, or even immoral. An atheist may be amoral, as may people who profess a faith in a deity or two.

I am an atheist, and my views on global morality are summed up in a quote in my signature: "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so", meaning that what one group may find moral, another will find utterly repugnant.

My own morality and ethics stem from a couple of books by J S Mill: On Liberty and Utilitarianism. I'm happy to go into it in more detail (quite possibly too much detail) if you or anyone else is interested.

What stops me going out and killing someone because they've got in my way? If I'm brutally honest, selfishness. If I accept that it is OK for me to kill someone because they've got in my way, then I have to accept it is OK for others to do the same, or be a hypocrite. And frankly I'm quite happy living my life without the fear that someone might kill me for offending them(*). Also, it strikes me that in order to actually go out and kill people you must be either consumed with hatred or anger. Now, I've experienced both in quite concentrated doses, and I feel far happier without those emotions getting too intense. (And for what it's worth, neither the law of the land nor of any deity/religion (or fear of retribution from same) has any influence on it).

And yes, that is very simplistic, but if I go into any more detail I'll be here all night typing, and the yeti(**) would rather I go to bed sooner rather than later.

(* I realise that there is the possibility that someone might kill me because I've upset them, but in the current world it is a far slimmer chance than my hypothetical one above)

(** not the mythical one, but the lesser spotted yeti domesticus. AKA my hubby ***)

(*** he's acquired that nickname as yeti is easier to type than the tall and hairy one.)

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

yeah, but my Goddess gave birth to both your Gods! disprove THAT!

This is excellent and illustrates the point. Atheists think that their point of view is the center of the world and thus they can create there own Gods ad infinitum. There's only one God and when youre ready to stop playing games we can talk about him. You know I was thinking... Kittens probably love to cuddle up with kindles, and possibly the other way round as well... just thought I'd throw that out there.