Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[sweevo]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

In all of these, God hates the sin. The person gets the hate because he won't let go of the sin. Granted, Esau's sin of giving up his birthright sounds like a generosity to me instead of a sin -- but perhaps there was "attitude" involved, which wasn't written down.

So the person gets the hate, which means God does hate them. So, does he hate and love Esau at the same time, or does he not love Esau?

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by darknessangel

You see! THAT'S BULLSHIT! You just don't want too see the damage that religion is inflicting in society nowadays. Christians with it's "moral" things against anticonceptives (see Africa) and new stem cell investigations (this is such an inmense leap in biological medicine!). Muslims with... *no comment*... I'm cool with 'em. Don't want any jihad on me. Scientology someone? People refusing blood transfusions and dying because of it? Wait... I'm ok with that one too. Stupidity kills. Kids asking where are the dinosaurs in the bible?

So I hope you get my drift.

As for morality. I don't believe in your god and I don't go killing and raping left and right THUS proving your argument wrong. And that's the morality I wear. I don't need a book to be moral.

Its not the religion but the misuse of it that causes troubles today. As for your not killing and raping... GOOD!.. Keep it up. But this was not my argument. Having faith allows you to be clear about whats right and wrong. It sounds simple but the practice of that in life is more complicated than you may think, and even supposed upright members of society sometimes convince themselves to pervert morality. No you can do it without the book, but its easier with. And Satan has interesting ways of slowly helping people to pervert themselves.

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by darknessangel

Ok, ok... Letting all the infighting and dumb arguments aside. I think the main topic was about "atheist being a pain in the back of people".

Unless of course you don't like your science-developed computer, cell phone, internet and car.

It's also true that a lot of people who claim christianity are a "pain in the back of people". In fact, Jesus said ... well, it wasn't quite that ... but he said that a lot of people who use His name will find out that they never really knew Him, and "I (Jesus) never knew you".

Originally Posted by darknessangel

You see! THAT'S BULLSHIT! You just don't want too see the damage that religion is inflicting in society nowadays. Christians with it's "moral" things against anticonceptives (see Africa) and new stem cell investigations (this is such an inmense leap in biological medicine!). Muslims with... *no comment*... I'm cool with 'em. Don't want any jihad on me. Scientology someone? People refusing blood transfusions and dying because of it? Wait... I'm ok with that one too. Stupidity kills.

Yup, the crusades were bad and so was Hitler. I don't have any problem with the modern things that God has given us the ability to create / discover. He gave us the smarts! God never said anything about anticonceptives, or stem cell investigations, or blood transfusions. I think He helped us to get to this point in scientific knowledge.

Yup, most of "religion" has got it wrong, and is chasing after just a set of rigid rules. Some of the rules start out good, but it's not up to us to judge -- that's God's job, in the end.

So I prefer not to verbally debate all this stuff ... but to live His love. I doubt if others can be convinced of something without living around somebody and really getting to know them. Yes, I have sinned, and yes, I continue to sin ... I continue to need forgiveness, and can only get love from God. It certainly doesn't come from me!

Endeavoring to step away from the arguments/soapbox, cause that's not how I show God to anybody.

bgDeb

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by sweevo

So the person gets the hate, which means God does hate them. So, does he hate and love Esau at the same time, or does he not love Esau?

Boy your really stuck on this aren't you. All I can say is keep going. Read Esau in entirety and come to your own conclusions. Read it carefully. Not with an eye to finding justifications for your own point of view.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

No. Heaven and Hell are here in this life as well as the after.

And by what stick do you measure such things?

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by sweevo

So the person gets the hate, which means God does hate them. So, does he hate and love Esau at the same time, or does he not love Esau?

Gods hates the sin. He loves Esau, but being truly Just, God must punish the sin if Esau won't give it up. "God hates Esau" is just a shorthand way to say that. IMHO.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Its not the religion but the misuse of it that causes troubles today. As for your not killing and raping... GOOD!.. Keep it up. But this was not my argument. Having faith allows you to be clear about whats right and wrong. It sounds simple but the practice of that in life is more complicated than you may think, and even supposed upright members of society sometimes convince themselves to pervert morality. No you can do it without the book, but its easier with. And Satan has interesting ways of slowly helping people to pervert themselves.

The "right" in the book includes slavery, selling daughters into marriage with their rapists, animal & human sacrifices (including the big human sacrifice that's supposedly the pivot-point around which the rules change), and subjugated women. Are these things "right" in your mind?

If not, when did they become wrong, and why does the book advocate them--or not speak out against them?

What's "moral" according to the book? If the morality doesn't come from the book, how can an outsider confirm that it's connected to the book at all?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Its not the religion but the misuse of it that causes troubles today. As for your not killing and raping... GOOD!.. Keep it up. But this was not my argument. Having faith allows you to be clear about whats right and wrong. It sounds simple but the practice of that in life is more complicated than you may think, and even supposed upright members of society sometimes convince themselves to pervert morality. No you can do it without the book, but its easier with. And Satan has interesting ways of slowly helping people to pervert themselves.

Again with the arrogance. I am an avowed atheist and I am very clear about what is wrong and right. I do not need to be told that by some old fairy tales and the fact that you apparently do does not make you morally superior to me.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The "right" in the book includes slavery, selling daughters into marriage with their rapists, animal & human sacrifices (including the big human sacrifice that's supposedly the pivot-point around which the rules change), and subjugated women. Are these things "right" in your mind?

If not, when did they become wrong, and why does the book advocate them--or not speak out against them?

What's "moral" according to the book? If the morality doesn't come from the book, how can an outsider confirm that it's connected to the book at all?

Are we talking about the same book?

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Again with the arrogance. I am an avowed atheist and I am very clear about what is wrong and right. I do not need to be told that by some old fairy tales and the fact that you apparently do does not make you morally superior to me.

And yet you're so sensitive about it... which leads me to suspect that your morality is on shaky foundations. I never said I was morally superior to you. Just out of curiosity, how do you know what is wrong or right. Where did you get those ideas? And why do you continue to incorporate them in your life?

[sweevo]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Boy your really stuck on this aren't you. All I can say is keep going. Read Esau in entirety and come to your own conclusions. Read it carefully. Not with an eye to finding justifications for your own point of view.

I've already read it. Tell you what: YOU keep going, and if you manage to find an explanation, let us know.

[PKFFW]

A post that is actually on topic......how refreshing!

Originally Posted by darknessangel

Ok, ok... Letting all the infighting and dumb arguments aside. I think the main topic was about "atheist being a pain in the back of people".

It is my personal opinion that this has it's roots on people's ever lowering levels of tolerance to bullshit.

This may very well be so. I think the point of the original article though is the arrogance, rudeness and belligerence displayed by many atheists is very much akin to the arrogance, rudeness and belligerence displayed by many theists. I saw the article as a call to civility from atheists since, as the old saying goes, "two wrongs don't make a right".

Originally Posted by darknessangel

Specially when it comes to kids. Religion was in ancient times like a club of good doers (leaving all the human sacrifices and genocides aside) and people working towards a single goal... just staying alive.

However, nowadays religion has become a serious obstacle for society as it will not evolve (think about methaphisical theories mumbo jumbo of trascendence, etc.). So now whe have establishments that clash against PROVEN knowledge. So the kids are getting mixed signals. Who should they believe? The local clergyman or the facts handed down by science? Should they feel "guilt" because of some arbitrary and outdated religious rule?

I agree that many people and organisations of "faith" seem to be in conflict with science. This is a shame.

Personally, as I've mentioned before, I think people should accept scientific facts and theory when the evidence is such than most reasonable and credible people agree it is correct as far as our understanding can go. Such things and evolution, the big bang, etc etc.

It is only in those areas where science has no answer or the evidence is inconclusive at best or non-existent at worst, that faith should play a part if one so chooses. Such questions as "do we have a soul that lives on after physical death" or "is there a god".

I really don't see why there needs to be conflict between the two.

Originally Posted by darknessangel

I think modern religion (with perhaps the exception of some buddhism) is a huge and horrendous speed bump in the evolution of human society. Very much like slavery and sexism. And because of this I think atheists and every human being has the right to say "NO TO BULLSHIT!".

Personally I think it is the use of religion to do unspeakable things, or condone unspeakable acts that has been the speed bump. And, frankly, I see the same thing with capitalism, communism, colonialism and many modern day concepts . Though of course it is far more subtle in such cases. The difference between dying through a jihad or dying because a multinational company needs to pollute, poison and destroy the habitat in order to make more profit or because one world super power to needs to ensure an uninterrupted oil supply means very little to the one who is dead.

Originally Posted by darknessangel

Unless of course you don't like your science-developed computer, cell phone, internet and car.

I don't see why it has to be an either or proposition? Does belief in a god mean you must deny the existence of computers and cell phones?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

And yet you're so sensitive about it... which leads me to suspect that your morality is on shaky foundations. I never said I was morally superior to you. Just out of curiosity, how do you know what is wrong or right. Where did you get those ideas? And why do you continue to incorporate them in your life?

A good start could be empathy... looking at your fellow man, putting yourself in his place. But you don't do that, if you have all the answers before actually meeting your fellow man, do you?

Morality is about the relation and interaction between people. Therefore a final morality based on something external to that relation is inherently wrong. It hasn't got anything to do with morality at all, but everything to do with passing judgments.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

And yet you're so sensitive about it... which leads me to suspect that your morality is on shaky foundations. I never said I was morally superior to you. Just out of curiosity, how do you know what is wrong or right. Where did you get those ideas? And why do you continue to incorporate them in your life?

I'd ask how you know what's wrong or right? I presume it's based on a book written 100's of years ago by anonymous people about a non-existent deity - a book that's riddled with inconsistencies (about which you seem to conveniently not notice questions), a book which is interpreted differently by just about everybody who reads it and a book which turns a blind eye to (or even condones) all kinds of dodgy behaviour.

Do you really believe that us atheists have no morality? Are you seriously suggesting that the fact I don't believe in some big beardy guy in the sky means that I'm likely to pop out tomorrow and kill somebody because I didn't realise it was wrong?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Are we talking about the same book?

“Those who are slaves must consider their masters worthy of all respect, so that no one will speak evil of the name of God and of our teaching. Slaves belonging to Christian masters must not despise them, for they are their brothers.” (1 Timothy 6:1-2).

"Let your women keep silence in the churches" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands, that if any obey not the Word, they also may be won without the word by the conduct of their wives" (1 Peter 3:1)

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

The animal sacrifices are too many to count; human sacrifices are somewhat rarer, except for the notable one in the center of the religion.