Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I was just asking if some stuff had been read by the poster, should be a yes or no sort of answer, shouldn't require much skull sweat. *shrug*

some stuff has been read by the poster.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

To be fair, the thread's moving pretty fast, and terrazoids is pretty much defending the faith alone. S/he has to choose between short quippy answers to keep up, or longer answers and let the thread move on to a new subtopic (and be accused of ignoring people).

And, of course, *nobody* expects to actually be convinced of anything they didn't start out believing. At best, they're gathering data for future arguments with people who might be convinced of something.

I certainly don't expect to see anything from terrazoids that I haven't seen in several dozen online religious debates, and my own religious beliefs are pretty much impervious to standard proselytizing methods. I enjoy the back-and-forth, but it's not persuasive. I'm vaguely hoping to see something new, or an old argument presented in a new light, but not expecting it.

I don't want to convince you. Your own life is going to do that. But I'd be happy if I planted a few seeds.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

like I said... don't link me to a website that exists to whip people into a frenzy. for an "internationally known award winning writer", I've never heard of him and can't find any of his awards.

I'm internationally known and award winning as well. so there!



I can't figure out where he was going with that....

Well one internationally known award writer should recognize another internationally known award writer.

You should read the bit about the slavery in Tibet and some of the practices.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

are you incapable of answering my questions or just ignoring them?

That is utterly normal behavior for a fundie Christian-- a chronic unwillingness to as much as touch any questions that in any way can't be spun to their explicit message. For anyone who has spent a long time hanging around science forums-- especially biology and astronomy, and especially on usenet-- people like this poster are a nickel a thousand. And I'm glad that he showed up, because dealing with people like him every day is exactly what leads to militant/zealot atheists.

[darknessangel]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I agree with a lot of what you say. Bt there is no conflict between science and religion. They are not the subjects that interfere. And kids these days are getting mixed signals precisely because of the prevalence of atheism and the mistaken belief that you can create your own morality and wear it like some fashion statement.

You see! THAT'S BULLSHIT! You just don't want too see the damage that religion is inflicting in society nowadays. Christians with it's "moral" things against anticonceptives (see Africa) and new stem cell investigations (this is such an inmense leap in biological medicine!). Muslims with... *no comment*... I'm cool with 'em. Don't want any jihad on me. Scientology someone? People refusing blood transfusions and dying because of it? Wait... I'm ok with that one too. Stupidity kills. Kids asking where are the dinosaurs in the bible?

So I hope you get my drift.

As for morality. I don't believe in your god and I don't go killing and raping left and right THUS proving your argument wrong. And that's the morality I wear. I don't need a book to be moral.

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Well, there's really not that many variations on the omnipotent, enigmatic deity myth, so I guess all these fairy stories tend to gravitate towards similar basic stories.

Or perhaps they are all hearing the same basic truth from "the ether" ... err, from God ... who eventually played out the story he had been telling them about?

Originally Posted by sweevo

Leviticus 20:23
And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16, 19
These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Hosea 9:15
I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings.

Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

In all of these, God hates the sin. The person gets the hate because he won't let go of the sin. Granted, Esau's sin of giving up his birthright sounds like a generosity to me instead of a sin -- but perhaps there was "attitude" involved, which wasn't written down.

Originally Posted by captcrouton

I don't have the need to prove the existence of God scientifically. I believe in love, and you can't prove it scientifically. .....

I think that scientific method is a very narrow window to see the world. .....

Somewhere I grew out of my need to prove God to people who don't really want to believe in Him anyway. .....

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything in this forum.

Originally Posted by ardeegee

bgD, all I can do is encourage you to follow your instincts-- if it doesn't make sense to you, ask yourself if it might just be because it doesn't make sense. ......
Read all three of these articles.....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16779055/T...-by-Carl-Sagan

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16779050/B...ichael-Shermer

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16779053/C...-by-James-Lett

Ok, I did. I scanned them -- and I come from a Mathematics (and Physics) background, so I am familiar with logic. But I'm with CaptCrouton in not needing to prove God to myself.

Basically -- any God who is small enough to wrap my mind around .... to fit inside my brain ... for me to completely understand .... is too small to be God. He would be a made up construct, if He weren't bigger than I could understand.

That's why I liked the second half of the old book "Flatland". It shows how hard it is for a 1-D world to grasp a 2-D world, and the proposed 2-D world to understand our existing 3-D world. Any God that fits inside my own world, couldn't possibly have created it.

Originally Posted by ardeegee

And then maybe you might be willing to take a look at this book by Dan Barker, or at least download the sample chapters here to one of your several reading devices.

Since there are some chapters available online, I will certainly look at them. Thanks for the pointer!

An Amazon commenter to this book points to Peter Kreeft's "Handbook of Christian Apologetics". So I paid actual money for the Pocket version in Kindle form, to read about the arguments on the opposite side too. You might be interested in reading it!

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I don't want to convince you. Your own life is going to do that. But I'd be happy if I planted a few seeds.

You know, if you'd just left it at "I don't want to convince you", that would be fine. But you had to go and spoil it with the insufferably smug, "Your own life is going to do that".

You can't possibly have any idea what conclusions anybody's life is going to bring them to - to think otherwise is ridiculous arrogance.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

That is utterly normal behavior for a fundie Christian-- a chronic unwillingness to as much as touch any questions that in any way can't be spun to their explicit message. For anyone who has spent a long time hanging around science forums-- especially biology and astronomy, and especially on usenet-- people like this poster are a nickle a thousand. And I'm glad that he showed up, because dealing with people like him every day is exactly what leads to militant/zealot atheists.

I answered every question. Well I'm content to be just a penny in a million. I predict that one day you're going to be as militant about religion as you are now about atheism. Your problem isn't what you believe, its you're attitude sunny boy

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

-- people like this poster are a nickle a thousand. And I'm glad that he showed up, because dealing with people like him every day is exactly what leads to militant/zealot atheists.

I think that's a bit harsh. I think Terrazoids has done pretty well considering the amount of posts coming their way.
I'm an atheist, but I'm rather impressed with how they've handled it so far - although I don't agree with the argument, Terrazoids deserves some credit for sticking with it imho.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

You know, if you'd just left it at "I don't want to convince you", that would be fine. But you had to go and spoil it with the insufferably smug, "Your own life is going to do that".

You can't possibly have any idea what conclusions anybody's life is going to bring them to - to think otherwise is ridiculous arrogance.

Call it a fault, sometimes I like being ... insufferably smug. You know Because I'm proud of my faith and what I've achieved there. I'm like a lone redwood with buzzards flying all around. My roots are strong.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I don't want to convince you. Your own life is going to do that. But I'd be happy if I planted a few seeds.

My life has convinced me that Christianity is something of a blight on the human psyche, and the few Christians I've met who are truly moral and enlightened people are anomalies in their religions.

Also, I don't have time for another god. Have enough to do keeping up with the ones I'm already involved with. And besides, YHVH doesn't like to share; I prefer polyamorous deities.

[Laz116]

Eyes blindly looking towards the heavens seldom sees the fellow man.

[darknessangel]

Ok... I go to sleep. Terrazoids has been civil. But Terrazoids... limit your religion to yourself, please don't go infecting kids. It's really worse than an STD.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Eyes blindly looking towards the heavens seldom sees the fellow man.

No. Heaven and Hell are here in this life as well as the after.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Call it a fault, sometimes I like being ... insufferably smug. You know Because I'm proud of my faith and what I've achieved there. I'm like a lone redwood with buzzards flying all around. My roots are strong.

That actually makes me feel quite sick.