Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Is one supposed to get the impression that it describes a god of love? 'Cos that's not what I got from it.

It describes a god who is love ... but who is also righteous, and can't even have a normal person touch his ark without dying. I don't like the Old Testament either, and I can't explain much of it. What I think I hear that part saying is how holy God is, and that the 'other' nations were wrong in their worshipping, *and* that the Israelites couldn't please Him either.

So He came down and paid the debt Himself, knowing that none of us could reach His standards.

I hope to ask Him for an explanation (during the long not-time available in Heaven) cause it's beyond my human brain to figure Him out.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

You'd start killing people if you lost your faith?

I doubt it. But people justify murder to themselves all the time. It happens all the time and sometimes over the the most pointless issues. Its what they think they'll gain by murdering thats important. Its the fact that they are justifying it and thus perverting morality. You need to keep to the point here and not try to attack me personally because it doesn't match what you believe.

[sweevo]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

God loves, but God is Just.

So just he punishes people for the actions of their ancestors. Multiple examples can be found in your bible.

(at this point, I have no idea if you're a fundie or a troll).

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by mike_bike_kite

The wiki definition is Fundamentalism refers to a belief in a strict adherence to specific set of theological doctrines which seems to sum you up quite well. I guess many people believe themselves to be one thing while the mirror states something else.

Oh well, a wiki definition. So you think you can sum me up?. Apply your quote to yourself before summing me up.

[weateallthepies]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

It describes a god who is love ... but who is also righteous, and can't even have a normal person touch his ark without dying. I don't like the Old Testament either, and I can't explain much of it. What I think I hear that part saying is how holy God is, and that the 'other' nations were wrong in their worshipping, *and* that the Israelites couldn't please Him either.

So He came down and paid the debt Himself, knowing that none of us could reach His standards.

I hope to ask Him for an explanation (during the long not-time available in Heaven) cause it's beyond my human brain to figure Him out.

I'd just like to know what he has against shellfish.

Though I tend to agree with other posters, I've lots of religious texts and not many of them leave me with the impression of a loving god, more like a capricious one.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

God loves, but God is Just. What do you think the last judgement is all about?!

While I'm more than willing to get into a theological debate about YHVH's supposed personality traits, I'm not sure you have a similar interest. (That's your opportunity to nod out gracefully and say "nah, I was just throwing in a few comments; wasn't actually looking for a real debate at this time.")

My perspective on "the last judgment," when I don't think of it as an exercise in speculative fiction, is that it's the sign of an oversized temper-tantrum: a creator is unhappy with the results of his own work, so he destroys it rather than fixing it, causing a great deal of pain to everyone involved.

That is, if one accepts the triple-omni situation as background. If he's not omnipotent, it doesn't apply. Of course, if he's not omnipotent, several of the other arguments fall apart.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I doubt it..... You need to keep to the point here and not try to attack me personally because it doesn't match what you believe.

Well, I don't think you'd kill people either - so it seems we can have moral boundaries without faith.

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by weateallthepies

I'd just like to know what he has against shellfish.

Or against mixing two kinds of fabric together! No, I don't know why there were all those odd rules either.

Perhaps to show his people that even if he wrote down literally everything they had to do, they still couldn't do it all right?

[weateallthepies]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

I doubt it. But people justify murder to themselves all the time. It happens all the time and sometimes over the the most pointless issues. Its what they think they'll gain by murdering thats important. Its the fact that they are justifying it and thus perverting morality. You need to keep to the point here and not try to attack me personally because it doesn't match what you believe.

I'm an atheist, I find the idea of murder pretty abhorrent without religion. Studies of prison population don't show an abundance of atheists. There doesn't appear to be any evidence for the idea that atheism leads to moral breakdown beyond you saying so.

[darknessangel]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

You'd start killing people if you lost your faith?

I do it everyday! I rape, kill and commit unspeakable acts of evil or wait... no.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Things changed when Jesus showed up.

Ah, but if genocide and all the other crimes explicitly ordered by God as per the OT suddenly were no longer okay after Jesus, then that means God's morals aren't absolute, and are subject to change. Which reduces them all to a matter of "might makes right."

The higher one's moral standards, the less of the bible one is able to take seriously and must be hand-waved away.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by sweevo

So just he punishes people for the actions of their ancestors. Multiple examples can be found in your bible.

(at this point, I have no idea if you're a fundie or a troll).

Many of those stories illustrate the brutal nature of causes and their effects. The point of the biblical histories is to come to an understanding of morality.

A 'Fundie', or a 'troll' .... Instead of name calling why not pay attention to what I'm talking about. I'm always struck how the replies from those who consider themselves athiests are always full of malice and irony.

Justify yourself and what you believe. Why stick one's head in the sand? Justify yourself, and don't use supposed encyclopedia reference articles or clever internet links as ornaments that you hang on your soul.

[sweevo]

Is it moral to punish people for the actions of others?

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Well, I don't think you'd kill people either - so it seems we can have moral boundaries without faith.

Ah, now thats an interesting and complex subject... But I'm not in agreement with you there.

[darknessangel]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Ah, now thats an interesting and complex subject... But I'm not in agreement with you there.

Morality is complex to you?... You must be a sociopath. Morality is easy: doing things that make people suffer = not good.