Atheist zealots a heavy cross to bear

[sweevo]

A couple of images I found posted elsewhere explaining agnosticism:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3320344/agnosticism1.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3320344/agnosticism2.jpg

[Graham]

...

Graham

[badgoodDeb]

Interesting that the very title to this thread contains a language item created because of the Christian faith. "a cross to bear" .....

[mike_bike_kite]

Originally Posted by HarryT

One of the reasons, though, that church schools are popular here (at least the Church of England and Catholic ones - I don't know about the others) is that they generally have excellent academic records, hence many parents are keen to send their children there regardless of religious beliefs.

My wife and I were introduced to the vicar of the school my kids were about to attend. He asked me when was the last time that I went to church.

It must of been a miracle that I'd been in St Paul's cathedral that very lunchtime and I began to tell him how I had been playing backgammon in the church yard when it had started to rain. My wife just looked at me in horror. My friend and I had decided to go down into the crypt to continue our game. Unfortunately, as we played, we were surrounded by more and more onlookers and eventually a curate(?) came over and wanted to know if we were playing for money.

I should point out at this point that it cost £10 to go into the main church, even the crypt we were playing in had been converted into a coffee house, and of course we were obviously playing for money - I naturally assumed that they wanted a cut. This seemed to upset the poor chap and he demanded that we leave. It seemed the same to my simple brain whether they made money from coffee, tourists or backgammon but he simply stated that this was a house of God. I looked around at the queues for coffee and cakes, the restaurant in the corner (which actually looked quite good) and the ticket machine for people wanting to see Nelson's grave - I guessed he must of skipped that bit in the bible about the tax collectors.

Luckily at the school the priest chap was taken away in the middle of my story and my wife looked very relieved. I had to spend the rest of the evening being steered away from believers by my poor suffering wife.

PS the next time we went in to the crypt the very same curate came over and said he'd be happy to let us play if we tried not to attract too much attention - this seemed like a very good compromise.

[terrazoids]

Well well, a lot of folks on this forum seem to be talking about what category of faith they fit into. I guess it all boils down to those of Faith, folks from other religions, agnostics, and then … the atheists.

Agnostics? Yuck. I've got little time for that. Why, thats like sitting on the fence, waiting to see what happens while Hitler decides he might as well invade Poland… Now that makes me laugh. No, Agnosticism won't drag you down to hell, but it ain't going to get you very far in the other direction either. Kind of reminds me of that Slough of Despond….

Now when it comes to folks of other religions… It makes me think of a chess game. Say you've got one 6 move sequence that leads straight to Checkmate. (And thats where you want to go by the way… just like heaven) Are there a bunch of different interpretations that lead to same result? Sometimes there may be a few variations, but basically theres one correct way to do it. And its right …. or its wrong. Period. So lets see…. hmm …. hum de dum .. people mentioned Buddhism. Ok so you managed to empty your head…. Then what?! ! Just sounds like a waste of time that could be spent doing things like, hmm maybe… HELPING other folks? Common people really, oh and by the way I wouldn't let someone called "Snitch Nhat Han " out of my sight for one little second let alone read a book by him. Oh yeah, and did you hear about that guy the so called Dalai Lama who used to keep slaves at the palace for his convenience !? (Yeah Really!) Until a bunch of communists took them away, and his nice palace while they were at it. By the way, that is just the true meaning of divine justice… God likes to pit the transgressors against themselves in eternal war until they WAKE UP on out of it.

Yeah well, what a waste, how about "Islam"? Hmm that means submission… Well I like the sound of that, however do you really think that declaring a jihad on everything is what God wants? Did knocking a bunch of buildings over teach the wicked superpower to come back to God's law? Here's a quick answer…. Nope. Just created a bunch of wars and suffering. That doesn't sound like God's plan to me. And whats with chucking rocks at Satan anyway? Yeah I don't like him either but how bout trying to use a little bit of the old "GOD'S WORD" on him. Ne'er did Fail.

Ok so where were we… Buddhism, wast of time. Islam? If you must… how about Hinduism? Well, I like the whole cyclical nature of time idea…. except for the fact that its just an idea. One word. Wrong. There is an end date Time and theres a date with the judge scheduled in your diary. i suggest you don't be late.

Anyway but now that special case. Atheists. Non believers. Those who deny the ever present God. Well this is sad, oh, and contrary to what some of you clever folks were trying to 'postulate'… morality can only come from God. Let me spell it out for you nice and simple. We were placed here in this universe with Choice. We are the only one of God's creations (that we know of) that has the ability to choose. There is right and wrong and we have the ability to choose between the two. God has laid this down as a divine plan for humanity and we're the only ones to have it that we know. Now when you live in a world where God doesn't exist, all of a sudden there are no moral boundaries any more! Why not kill someone? Ok so you might go to jail. But what if you could get away with it? What if its good to kill someone because then you won't have to look at his (or her) ugly face anymore! Well why not? I'll tell you why not. Because God said it was wrong to kill our neighbor!! I read with amusement someone's post earlier that they didn't like strict moral rules or standpoints to live by. Newsflash… Killing folks is wrong just like raping folks is wrong!! Its strict, just like that… but its RIGHT. And why you say? Why ask. God has proclaimed it so, and you might be able to surmise the reason yourself by analyzing the effect of such actions on society. Thats just it. Hell is pure chaos, and evil actions lead to a breakdown in society towards that smoldering state. Now atheism allows people to justify to themselves why or why not they can get away with various actions. Sometimes these people even convince themselves that blatantly evil actions are in fact good. I mean it gets to a point where these people aren't even living in a world of good and evil anymore. Everything is just 'blessed' shades of grey (sigh)…. So whats their world like? Animals. The world of animals. Theres no good or evil there either. But God did not make us like this. We are blessed with a nature beyond that of animal, and so ... it pleases Him not to see humans behaving like RABBITS!

Well since we're all here reading on our mobiles let me share just a selection from a short story that illustrates the point oh so well by a guy named Borges… Note that its not specifically about atheists, see what you think….

"I have been told by angels that when Melancthon died, a house was prepared for him like that in which he had lived in the world. This also is done with most of the newcomers, owing to which they do not know that they are not still in the natural world.... The things in his room, also, were all like those he had before, a similar table, a similar desk with compartments, and also a similar library; so that as soon as he awakened from sleep, he seated himself at the table and continued his writing, as if he were not a dead body, and this on the subject of justification by faith alone, and so on for several days, and writing nothing whatever concerning charity. As the angels perceived this, he was asked through messengers why he did not write about charity also. He replied that there was nothing of the church in charity, for if that were to be received as in any way an essential attribute of the church, man would also ascribe to himself the merit of justification and consequently of salvation, and so also he would rob faith of its spiritual essence. He said these things arrogantly, but he did not know that he was dead and that the place to which he had been sent was not heaven. When the angels perceived this, they withdrew.... A few weeks after this, the things which he used in his room began to be obscured, and at length to disappear, until at last there was nothing left there but the chair, the table, the paper and the inkstand; and, moreover, the walls of his room seemed to be plastered with lime, and the floor to be covered with a yellow, brick-like material, and he himself seemed to be more coarsely clad. Still, he went on writing, and since he persisted in his denial of charity... he suddenly seemed to himself to be under ground in a sort of workhouse, where there were other theologians like him. And when he wished to go out he was detained.... At this, he began to question his ideas, and he was taken out, and sent back to his former chamber.... When sent back, he appeared clad in a hairy skin, but he tried to imagine that what had gone before had been a mere hallucination, and he went on praising faith and denying charity. One evening at dusk, he felt a chill. That led him to walk through the house, and he realized that the other rooms were no longer those of the dwelling in which he had lived on earth. One room was filled with unknown instruments, another had shrunk so much that he could not enter it; another one had not itself changed, but its windows and doors opened onto great sand dunes. There was a room at the rear of the house in which there were three tables, at which sat men like himself, who also cast charity into exile, and he said that he conversed with them, and was confirmed by them day by day, and told that no other theologian was as wise as he. He was smitten by that adoration, but since some of the persons had no face, and others were like dead men, he soon came to abominate and mistrust them. Then he began to write something about charity; but what he wrote on the paper one day, he did not see the next; for this happens to every one there when he commits any thing to paper from the external man only, and not at the same time from the internal, thus from compulsion and not from freedom; it is obliterated of itself.... When any novitiates from the world entered his room to speak with him and to see him, he was ashamed that they should find him in such a sordid place, and so he would summon one of the magical spirits, who by phantasy could produce various becoming shapes, and who then adorned his room with ornaments and with flowered tapestry.... But as soon as the visitors were gone, these shapes vanished, and the former lime-plastering and emptiness returned, and sometimes before. The last word we have of Melancthon is that the wizard and one of the men without a face carried him out to the sand dunes, where he is now a servant to demons."


Gee, if I was an atheist I'd be just a little scared…

A previous comment on this forum asked… "Well I'm convinced… Umm, which God do I sign up to?" Look Pal, theres only One, and no its not Bachus... (chuckle)

Listen folks, bring home the good news!! Gods the real deal, and so's his son!

[Graham]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

So lets see…. hmm …. hum de dum .. people mentioned Buddhism. Ok so you managed to empty your head…. Then what?! ! Just sounds like a waste of time that could be spent doing things like, hmm maybe… HELPING other folks?

Terrazoids, if you'd like to actually learn something about Buddhism, I can suggest a number of good books.

Graham

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by Graham

Terrazoids, if you'd like to actually learn something about Buddhism, I can suggest a number of good books.

Graham

Graham, if you want to learn about God... I only need to recommend one good book.

[terrazoids]

One book or many books... which is the more 'elegant' solution? Isn't that what scientists like in their theories? Elegance. But theres another thing too. Truth. I like both in my book.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Well well, a lot of folks on this forum seem to be talking about what category of faith they ...blah blah

I don't know if this is trolling or just proselytizing, but whatever it is it epitomizes trying to have a discussion with someone of a proselytizing faith - the discussion can only be on their terms or it cannot take place. For that reason it has no place on a discussion forum.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Graham, if you want to learn about God... I only need to recommend one good book.

Nice riposte. However, I've read a lot of the one you're recommending, along with various commentaries and histories. Would you like one on Buddhism?

Graham

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Gee, if I was an atheist I'd be just a little scared…

That is very perceptive of you. As an atheist, I read your post, and was a little bit scared.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Graham, if you want to learn about God... I only need to recommend one good book.

Is that the one with lots of genocide, rape, adultery, & murder stories?

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's got a lot of nifty spiritual passages, but just reading the book from start to finish doesn't lead to warm feelings about the deity described.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Graham, if you want to learn about God... I only need to recommend one good book.

And here it is!

Also available in website form.

[badgoodDeb]

Terrazoids -- I think I'm on the same side you are on. But you aren't convincing even *me*.

Christ said there are only two rules: love God, love others. I hope that people see something different about me in the way I live (hopefully, they see love); not whether I can argue them into a corner.

[terrazoids]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

Terrazoids -- I think I'm on the same side you are on. But you aren't convincing even *me*.

Christ said there are only two rules: love God, love others. I hope that people see something different about me in the way I live (hopefully, they see love); not whether I can argue them into a corner.

Theres simplicity in what you say and truth. Love God, love others. Thats the path to heaven. I'm on your side.