Using Kindle WI-FI could get YOU Arrested! - Page 2

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gollu

There are places (e.g. airports) that provide free internet access as a service for their clients.
There are organizations that promote opening wifi spots as a community service.

Why shouldn't I enjoy those but pay hundreds of dollars per year to cellular providers for internet access?

Such sites as you describe are obviously fine to use. That's completely different to using someone's private network without permission. That is what is a criminal offence in the UK.

Richey79 · 09-10-2010, 05:34 AM

Reviewing ISPs' Terms of Service usually reveals a clause that not only allows the ISP to reveal customer information to the authorities to assist with legitimate criminal investigations, but also holds the customer responsible for any activities the connection is (ab)used for.

We have an odd situation currently in which those who make the laws about modern technologies really don't seem to understand the issues they are debating. (In the UK at least) The law holds the person using the unsecured network without permission guilty of stealing bandwidth, - using a law that was created before the proliferation of wireless networks in urban areas - whilst the ISP holds the person who failed to maintain the security of the network culpable for any misdeeds perpetrated using the connection.

The issues of what is morally right, and even what is legal, seem to diminish in relevance with regards to modern technology. When the law and the policies of powerful companies are so contradictory and unproven in court, the significant question becomes not 'what is the rule of law?' but 'what is the praxis of law?'

This story raises a lot of unanswered questions.

How on earth was this man's activity detected, unless he used that particular wireless connection for long periods of time on a regular basis, or unless the police were searching for people to catch at this particular 'crime'? Or was there some form of entrapment involved?

Surely a common sense approach would determine that if you do not secure your wireless network then you have been negligent in protecting your bandwidth and lose police protection from those who want to 'take' it. On the other hand, if a passerby uses that connection for illegal purposes, that is in no way the fault of the connection provider - as long as the failure to secure the network cannot be proven to have been motivated by dishonest intent.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richey79

Surely a common sense approach would determine that if you do not secure your wireless network then you have been negligent in protecting your bandwidth and lose police protection from those who want to 'take' it.

Would you also propose that it should not be illegal to walk into a house and steal someone's possessions if they've left their door unlocked? That's really a very similar situation.

kindlekitten · 09-10-2010, 06:25 AM

oh horsepuckey

when I connect my laptop wifi I am informed that I am going onto "Bill and Ted's excellent adventure" unsecured network.... do I want to continue???? on my laptop this is the case... I get the prompt

when I go online on my Kindle like I did in bumf*ck Mexico I didn't get any prompts, I wasn't stealing anyone's service, it was just like being on cell service.

please folks, get a litttle technological clue before you start running in circles crying the sky is falling and the cops are coming

good freaking grief

y'all in London still tryin to sell that bridge or something?

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 06:28 AM

You were connected to a WiFi network without being asked to select one? I've never had that happen on my Kindle.

kindlekitten · 09-10-2010, 06:48 AM

were you ever on a wifi network with your Kindle Harry? as far as I understand it, you're sharing the cellphone network with the Kindle.

when I go online, I get bars or I don't. I guaranfriggingtee you that when I went on line in Mexico I was NOT on any person or entities network other than the local cell

abigsmurf · 09-10-2010, 06:48 AM

Two key things to note with this law:

An unlocked door is not permission to enter. You need permission or implied permission.

The law only applies to people who know they are stealing someone else's wifi. The police have to prove that it was wilful and not accidental to get a conviction. They won't get a conviction if you can say that your device just automatically went to the first wifi connection it found or if the person involved wasn't technically minded enough to understand how wifi works.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

were you ever on a wifi network with your Kindle Harry? as far as I understand it, you're sharing the cellphone network with the Kindle.

Yes. I use my WiFi network at home with my Kindle.

Quote:

when I go online, I get bars or I don't. I guaranfriggingtee you that when I went on line in Mexico I was NOT on any person or entities network other than the local cell

But you don't have a Kindle 3, do you, so you don't have WiFi at all. This thread is not talking about using a cellular connection, but a WiFi connection - something that is only available with the new K3.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abigsmurf

The law only applies to people who know they are stealing someone else's wifi. The police have to prove that it was wilful and not accidental to get a conviction. They won't get a conviction if you can say that your device just automatically went to the first wifi connection it found or if the person involved wasn't technically minded enough to understand how wifi works.

Do you know of any device that will automatically connect to an unknown WiFi connection without asking first? I don't.

Doesn't the old adage "ignorance of the law is no excuse" apply here? If you break the law you break it; to the best of my knowledge, "willful intent" is not a requirement for prosecution or conviction.

carld · 09-10-2010, 07:02 AM

From reading his posts I don't think vugtitan likes Amazon, or the Kindle, very much at all.

JeremyR · 09-10-2010, 07:02 AM

Of course the thing to me is, if your Wi-Fi signal is going into someone else's property, well, that's trespassing.

I mean, what if say, they built a swimming pool that extended into your yard?

And then there are murky cases. For instance, I remember once instance of this where a guy was arrested for stealing a library's wifi after it was closed (he was sitting outside in his car).

Or what if you are in someplace that offers free WiFi, but you accidently get a neighbors or another stores?

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyR

Or what if you are in someplace that offers free WiFi, but you accidently get a neighbors or another stores?

I guess that would depend what the name of the network was. If someone lived next door to a MacDonald's, and named their unsecured WiFi network "MacDonald's Free WiFi" then there would probably be not too much chance of a conviction if someone were to connect to it. But if it were called "Fred's Private Network" then there might be more of a case to answer.

Quote:

And then there are murky cases. For instance, I remember once instance of this where a guy was arrested for stealing a library's wifi after it was closed (he was sitting outside in his car).

That sounds like an apocryphal story to me (unless you have a link to it?).

Kumabjorn · 09-10-2010, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Would you also propose that it should not be illegal to walk into a house and steal someone's possessions if they've left their door unlocked? That's really a very similar situation.

Don't know how the police in the UK would react to a situation like that, but in a lot of places they would consider the house owner to blame and I don't think any insurance company would reimburse the stolen items.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Don't know how the police in the UK would react to a situation like that, but in a lot of places they would consider the house owner to blame and I don't think any insurance company would reimburse the stolen items.

You are of course correct in saying that no insurance company would pay out in a case like that, but it would unquestionably still be a crime.

church mouse · 09-10-2010, 07:25 AM

"Unsecured wi-fi" does not mean "public wi-fi".

Yes, leaving your wi-fi unsecured is stupid, but that does not justify others accessing it without your permission.

The chances of anyone getting caught for the offence in the UK are pretty minute, but the act is still wrong.

As for the original OP, the Kindle is no different from any other wi-fi device in this regard, so it is a non-story post.

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09-10-2010, 05:34 AM	#17
Richey79 mrkrgnao Posts: 241 Karma: 237248 Join Date: May 2010 Device: PRS650, K3 Wireless, Galaxy S3, iPad 3.	Reviewing ISPs' Terms of Service usually reveals a clause that not only allows the ISP to reveal customer information to the authorities to assist with legitimate criminal investigations, but also holds the customer responsible for any activities the connection is (ab)used for. We have an odd situation currently in which those who make the laws about modern technologies really don't seem to understand the issues they are debating. (In the UK at least) The law holds the person using the unsecured network without permission guilty of stealing bandwidth, - using a law that was created before the proliferation of wireless networks in urban areas - whilst the ISP holds the person who failed to maintain the security of the network culpable for any misdeeds perpetrated using the connection. The issues of what is morally right, and even what is legal, seem to diminish in relevance with regards to modern technology. When the law and the policies of powerful companies are so contradictory and unproven in court, the significant question becomes not 'what is the rule of law?' but 'what is the praxis of law?' This story raises a lot of unanswered questions. How on earth was this man's activity detected, unless he used that particular wireless connection for long periods of time on a regular basis, or unless the police were searching for people to catch at this particular 'crime'? Or was there some form of entrapment involved? Surely a common sense approach would determine that if you do not secure your wireless network then you have been negligent in protecting your bandwidth and lose police protection from those who want to 'take' it. On the other hand, if a passerby uses that connection for illegal purposes, that is in no way the fault of the connection provider - as long as the failure to secure the network cannot be proven to have been motivated by dishonest intent.

09-10-2010, 06:25 AM	#19
kindlekitten Professional Adventuress Posts: 13,368 Karma: 50260224 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Olympic Peninsula on the OTHER Washington! (the big green clean one on the west coast!) Device: Kindle, the original! Times Two! and gifting an International Kindle	oh horsepuckey when I connect my laptop wifi I am informed that I am going onto "Bill and Ted's excellent adventure" unsecured network.... do I want to continue???? on my laptop this is the case... I get the prompt when I go online on my Kindle like I did in bumf*ck Mexico I didn't get any prompts, I wasn't stealing anyone's service, it was just like being on cell service. please folks, get a litttle technological clue before you start running in circles crying the sky is falling and the cops are coming good freaking grief y'all in London still tryin to sell that bridge or something?

09-10-2010, 06:28 AM	#20
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,548 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	You were connected to a WiFi network without being asked to select one? I've never had that happen on my Kindle.

09-10-2010, 06:48 AM	#21
kindlekitten Professional Adventuress Posts: 13,368 Karma: 50260224 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Olympic Peninsula on the OTHER Washington! (the big green clean one on the west coast!) Device: Kindle, the original! Times Two! and gifting an International Kindle	were you ever on a wifi network with your Kindle Harry? as far as I understand it, you're sharing the cellphone network with the Kindle. when I go online, I get bars or I don't. I guaranfriggingtee you that when I went on line in Mexico I was NOT on any person or entities network other than the local cell

09-10-2010, 06:48 AM	#22
abigsmurf Enthusiast Posts: 33 Karma: 22 Join Date: Aug 2010 Device: PRS-505	Two key things to note with this law: An unlocked door is not permission to enter. You need permission or implied permission. The law only applies to people who know they are stealing someone else's wifi. The police have to prove that it was wilful and not accidental to get a conviction. They won't get a conviction if you can say that your device just automatically went to the first wifi connection it found or if the person involved wasn't technically minded enough to understand how wifi works.

09-10-2010, 07:02 AM	#25
carld Wizard Posts: 2,698 Karma: 4748723 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Kindle Paperwhite	From reading his posts I don't think vugtitan likes Amazon, or the Kindle, very much at all.

09-10-2010, 07:02 AM	#26
JeremyR Guru Posts: 973 Karma: 2458402 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: St. Louis Device: Kindle Keyboard, Nook HD+	Of course the thing to me is, if your Wi-Fi signal is going into someone else's property, well, that's trespassing. I mean, what if say, they built a swimming pool that extended into your yard? And then there are murky cases. For instance, I remember once instance of this where a guy was arrested for stealing a library's wifi after it was closed (he was sitting outside in his car). Or what if you are in someplace that offers free WiFi, but you accidently get a neighbors or another stores?

09-10-2010, 07:25 AM	#30
church mouse Evangelist Posts: 485 Karma: 5277078 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo Clara HD, Boox Poke 2, PocketBook Verse Pro (634)	"Unsecured wi-fi" does not mean "public wi-fi". Yes, leaving your wi-fi unsecured is stupid, but that does not justify others accessing it without your permission. The chances of anyone getting caught for the offence in the UK are pretty minute, but the act is still wrong. As for the original OP, the Kindle is no different from any other wi-fi device in this regard, so it is a non-story post.