Man Booker Prize shortlist announced

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by TGS

Maybe the idea of the Orange Prizes was to redress the balance - women writer's have perhaps historically been overlooked by the literary establishment and, hence, by readers.

Perhaps that was the idea, but it seems like quite blatant sex discrimination to me.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps that was the idea, but it seems like quite blatant sex discrimination to me.

Perhaps it is better, and perfectly possible, to think of it as positive action rather than sex discrimination.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's good that the aren't biased. Not like the "Orange" award, where eligibility depends on your genetic make-up.

The Orange Prize sounds like women are being pitied for their lack of abilities.

Division of men and women on a physical basis, as in separate male/female Olympic categories is fine. But not on intellectual capabilities.

Imagine having an award for the best Negro writer.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Imagine having an award for the best Negro writer.

You mean like this one?

I do agree with you. It's condescending, implying that a woman writer, black writer, or whatever, is not capable of competing in an "open" competition.

[SameOldStory]

Maybe we need an award for the best Polish, Italian, or Japanese writer. No, why bother even looking.

But we could at least try to find "The Best Of" in each of those subcategories.

[HarryT]

I think that "national" awards are in a different category to awards which limit writers based on gender, skin colour, etc. Eg, the Man Booker prize (which this thread is about) is restricted to writers in the British Commonwealth. I don't have a problem with that, personally.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You mean like this one?

I do agree with you. It's condescending, implying that a woman writer, black writer, or whatever, is not capable of competing in an "open" competition.

I don't think it's a question of not being capable of competing in open competition, more a question of not being recognized in an industry dominated by white men. But it's an issue all attempts to redress an inequality by means of affirmative action face isn't it?

[GERGE]

Positive discrimination only opens the way for the racism or sexism. At least that is how it happened here in Turkey with Turks and Kurds. Every new positive discrimination brought us closed to a civil war, many of our intellectuals are afraid today.

A special award for women or black people only makes discrimination more distinct. It is insulting.

[SameOldStory]

"But it's an issue all attempts to redress an inequality by means of affirmative action face isn't it?"

Are you saying that a minority can't pass a Turing type test, and therfore needs special consideration?

" more a question of not being recognized in an industry dominated by white men."

I agree that there has been unjust descrimination in the past from publishers. How can this be corrected by affirmative action? I care how well a book is written on a subject that interests me. The fact that the author could be a minority is of no concern to me at all. The first few pages will tell me all I want to know.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by GERGE

A special award for women or black people only makes discrimination more distinct. It is insulting.

Perhaps one should be guided by the recipients of such awards as to whether it is insulting. Not being a woman and not being a writer I wouldn't really know whether it is insulting or not, but I have not heard of the winner of the Orange Prize turning it down because she felt insulted on the grounds that the prize was only open to women.

[charleski]

Women writers have won 15 out of the past 40 Booker prizes. So while it's not an exact 50/50 split, it's close enough to belie any claims of sexism. Personally, while I don't mind the Orange prize being women-only, I think that should be made clear in the name of the award - 'The Orange Prize for Fiction' misleadingly suggests that it's an open contest.

[SameOldStory]

"The Orange Prize for Fiction celebrates excellence, originality and accessibility in women’s writing from throughout the world. The winner receives a cheque for £30,000 ..."

I'll somehow humble myself if need be.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by TGS

Perhaps one should be guided by the recipients of such awards as to whether it is insulting. Not being a woman and not being a writer I wouldn't really know whether it is insulting or not, but I have not heard of the winner of the Orange Prize turning it down because she felt insulted on the grounds that the prize was only open to women.

Personally I could take a fair amount of insult for £30,000 .

[TGS]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

"But it's an issue all attempts to redress an inequality by means of affirmative action face isn't it?"

Are you saying that a minority can't pass a Turing type test, and therfore needs special consideration?

" more a question of not being recognized in an industry dominated by white men."

I agree that there has been unjust descrimination in the past from publishers. How can this be corrected by affirmative action? I care how well a book is written on a subject that interests me. The fact that the author could be a minority is of no concern to me at all. The first few pages will tell me all I want to know.

No, I'm not saying a writer from an under-represented group, (and many of the groups may not be minorities though they are under-represented, women, for example), cannot pass a Turing test, (though what it's got to do with the subject at hand is beyond me), and therefore needs special consideration. I am saying that if someone who belongs to a demographic group that has been systematically excluded from taking the Turing test - to continue with your analogy - then there might be a case for some kind of special consideration.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by charleski

Women writers have won 15 out of the past 40 Booker prizes. So while it's not an exact 50/50 split, it's close enough to belie any claims of sexism. Personally, while I don't mind the Orange prize being women-only, I think that should be made clear in the name of the award - 'The Orange Prize for Fiction' misleadingly suggests that it's an open contest.

Or, to put it differently; men won just under two thirds of the last forty Booker Prizes - which is about the same gender split as this year's short-list.