As readers what do you think of this idea?

[GraceKrispy]

I agree with whatʻs been said. It would not make me more likely to buy the book. As someone said, Iʻd rather just get a lottery ticket. For me personally, the only "gimmick" that makes it more likely I may buy a book I may not normally buy, is if itʻs in a "bundle" that gives me a discount on the total cost of what the books would cost individually. I like bundles, and I have bought a few where I wouldnʻt have purchased those titles individually. Discounts, whether on individual books or bundles, are things that motivate me to buy.

[Maggie May]

No amount of gimmicky contests or offers would encourage me to buy a particular book.
I will always read the blurb, and if I like what I read I will buy the book. If I don't like, I don't buy. However, when I choose a book, and get a little discount that's a nice bonus.

Slan
Mag.

[TGS]

I don't think a competition is going to get me to buy a book I am not interested in and/or know nothing about the author of. What might is if the author or publisher told me that, if I found out that the book wasn't really for me I could have my money back - but then again, maybe not - there's so much in my TBR pile that something has to be really worthwhile, (in my terms), just to get on there.

[ficbot]

Just FYI, but my dad has a book (non-fiction) published by a 'real' publisher in paper, sold 200 copies and his publisher was thrilled. For a new author, the expectations are just very low---no matter if it's indie or not. Imho you simply can't go into this expecting that it will be the instant path to fame and fortune. It just doesn't work that way, and there isn't really a way to *make* it work that way simply because you are competing in a very crowded marketplace for people's eyeballs and attention, never mind their money

[mr ploppy]

Unless it was a big publisher or sponsor, people wouldn't really trust a prize draw like that to be fair.

When David Moody had a new book out earlier this year he had a competition where you had to send in a photo of yourself holding the book within its first week of release for a chance to win a T-shirt. I don't think he got many takers, but the idea would have been to get as many people as possible buying the book within a short period of time. If you can hit a best seller list, even if just for a short period of time, that will be its own promotion.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by simonroyle

The bane of life for a modern day author is marketing.

Whether you're published by a "big house", or indie publisher. For DIY authors the horrible truth to now is that the average self-published book sells less than 200 copies. That statistic might be changing with eBooks but with the number of new books rapidly increasing probably not.

The only way to attract attention is through blog tours, or networking (and if you're a US author) book signings etc.

But what if a competition was tied into book sales?

Something like this:
- For every 500 books sold a lucky draw is held and one of the 500 gets 10% of all sales; same for 5000 books sold or well pick a number...

- This book reaches 5000 be entered in a lucky draw (with proof of purchase) to win a free holiday to (fill in exotic destination here - Fiji for example)

Question: would such a competition or prize make it more or less likely that you would buy a 3.99 book?

Are such methods "tacky"?

Interesting idea...I don't see it as a reason not to buy your works nor do I see it as a reason to buy your books. But either way it's sort of a moot point because it will likely be illegal in the US and classified as gambling.

Contests and give aways are tricky in the US. Contests which award cash, smell of money laundering and number running...now this applied only to US offerings, still I would say to discuss it with an attorney before trying it out online.

I like and applaud your attempt at finding a way to increase any marketing buzz via a hope your plan goes viral...but really it is tough to run a true contest here in the US because of laws controlling them.

[simonroyle]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Just FYI, but my dad has a book (non-fiction) published by a 'real' publisher in paper, sold 200 copies and his publisher was thrilled. For a new author, the expectations are just very low---no matter if it's indie or not. Imho you simply can't go into this expecting that it will be the instant path to fame and fortune. It just doesn't work that way, and there isn't really a way to *make* it work that way simply because you are competing in a very crowded marketplace for people's eyeballs and attention, never mind their money

Agreed. I doubt anyone who has done any reading on the subject of writing and publishing a book has any romantic ideas about fame and fortune. What I, and I suspect, quite a few of my fellow authors do want is to sell beyond the average 200 copies...

That means coming up with ideas that work. What is great about forums such as this is that you can *test* an idea with knowledgeable readers and get good solid feedback, often with anecdotes, as to what might work.

Approximately 3 billion books are "sold" (doesn't include 2nd hand books or freebies) each year in the US alone. That figure is increasing, and I believe that globally the number of books read is increasing and will sharply increase in the next few years.

As an aside, I haven't put my book up for sale yet; that will happen in Oct - this is pure market research. What I can say is that 400+ have downloaded the free pdf and epub versions - so if all I can expect is 200 copies then I really am screwed :-)

My preferred method of marketing would be:

- write book
- put in review bucket
- paste sample
- put price on it
- dump in distribution bucket aka Smashwords or Amazon
- repeat

Unfortunately (and I use that word somewhat with tongue in cheek - have you tried to say something with your tongue in cheek), I am reliably informed via a gazillion blogs on the subject that I have to "reach out", "connect", "promote", and otherwise hang out a shingle to get noticed.

Maybe getting arrested for running an illegal lottery would do it...

The problem is compounded if you're a "foreigner" as I am. Although I once lived in the States, I do not live there now. I live in Bangkok, and whilst that has a great many advantages (none of which I am willing to give up), the ability to promote a book is mostly limited to what you can do digitally.

Approximately 1 million new books are hitting the digital and traditional shelves every year, in the US alone. To get a book seen, especially if is fiction is competing with that number. You can divide it up between fiction, non-fiction and split further into genres and categories if you like - the reality is that someone goes to a bookstore with the idea of buying something to fill a space of time; for some time in the future, and have that space of time be valuable. A book is therefore a "futures contract" on time. An author's track record, sample pages, the underlying fundamentals of the "stock".

I appreciate the heads up, that instant fame and fortune are an unlikely scenario, and to be clear I am not being sarcastic, as such is a common mis-perception of the realities of selling a book - I do think it worth exploring ideas that can take well written books above the average.

The average life expectancy for a male in Thailand is 65 - I'm working on that one too :-)

[Emmaleigh]

Sorry, competitions just wouldn't do it for me. However, one of the reasons why I picked up a new-to-me author's book recently was due to her consistent, pleasant interaction on her Facebook page. She asks great questions and frequently becomes involved in discussions about her books. A friend "liked" her on my FB page which is how it's quite often how new authors are spread around. Is this the type of information which interests you?

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by simonroyle

Agreed. I doubt anyone who has done any reading on the subject of writing and publishing a book has any romantic ideas about fame and fortune. What I, and I suspect, quite a few of my fellow authors do want is to sell beyond the average 200 copies...

That means coming up with ideas that work. What is great about forums such as this is that you can *test* an idea with knowledgeable readers and get good solid feedback, often with anecdotes, as to what might work.

Approximately 3 billion books are "sold" (doesn't include 2nd hand books or freebies) each year in the US alone. That figure is increasing, and I believe that globally the number of books read is increasing and will sharply increase in the next few years.

As an aside, I haven't put my book up for sale yet; that will happen in Oct - this is pure market research. What I can say is that 400+ have downloaded the free pdf and epub versions - so if all I can expect is 200 copies then I really am screwed :-)

My preferred method of marketing would be:

- write book
- put in review bucket
- paste sample
- put price on it
- dump in distribution bucket aka Smashwords or Amazon
- repeat

Unfortunately (and I use that word somewhat with tongue in cheek - have you tried to say something with your tongue in cheek), I am reliably informed via a gazillion blogs on the subject that I have to "reach out", "connect", "promote", and otherwise hang out a shingle to get noticed.

Maybe getting arrested for running an illegal lottery would do it...

The problem is compounded if you're a "foreigner" as I am. Although I once lived in the States, I do not live there now. I live in Bangkok, and whilst that has a great many advantages (none of which I am willing to give up), the ability to promote a book is mostly limited to what you can do digitally.

Approximately 1 million new books are hitting the digital and traditional shelves every year, in the US alone. To get a book seen, especially if is fiction is competing with that number. You can divide it up between fiction, non-fiction and split further into genres and categories if you like - the reality is that someone goes to a bookstore with the idea of buying something to fill a space of time; for some time in the future, and have that space of time be valuable. A book is therefore a "futures contract" on time. An author's track record, sample pages, the underlying fundamentals of the "stock".

I appreciate the heads up, that instant fame and fortune are an unlikely scenario, and to be clear I am not being sarcastic, as such is a common mis-perception of the realities of selling a book - I do think it worth exploring ideas that can take well written books above the average.

The average life expectancy for a male in Thailand is 65 - I'm working on that one too :-)

hahahaha....nice one!! Ok, for insight into your style of writing have ya ever read any of Effinger's Budayeen series? Maybe "When Gravity Fails"? Very pulpy & very fun...the whole series was great and your description of your work as well as being in Bangkok might have you in a place where the books would be fun to read...a shame Effinger is gone and his works are not out in ebook form so always looking for someone as, well, twisted as he was...hehehe...

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

...a shame Effinger is gone and his works are not out in ebook form so always looking for someone as, well, twisted as he was...hehehe...

Actually, you can get some Effinger in e-format at both Baen's Webscriptions and Fictionwise, including Budayeen Nights (picked it up myself with the recent FW 50% discount coupon).

But yeah, there needs to be more. I'm hoping for a Totally Complete Adventures of Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson, myself.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Actually, you can get some Effinger in e-format at both Baen's Webscriptions and Fictionwise, including Budayeen Nights (picked it up myself with the recent FW 50% discount coupon).

But yeah, there needs to be more. I'm hoping for a Totally Complete Adventures of Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson, myself.

Yeah, i have the Baen stuff for sure...gobbled that up soon as I found it...

I once emails one of the Effinger fan sites and basically was told the same bummer story of other favorite writers of mine, for example Edward Abbey, that the estate/rights holder is either refusing to make the work available or nobody really knows who owns the rights or the rights holder wants an insane amount of cash for the rights. I wish an agile company like Baen could make it their goal to try and get some of these neglected authors works...

BTW, I was never even aware of the Barbarian Swordsperson works...THANKS, another set of stories I won't read before I croak. Oh, if you ever find them I really recommended The Callahan Chronicles by Spider Robinson as well as the other associated stories, save for Callahan's Legacy as it has a rather unfunny segment that amounts to child molestation that was totally not needed in the story so I suspect Spider was telling people something there...

Anyway, sorry to Simon for the mini-jack of his thread!!! d'oh!!

In the mean time, I have d/l'd Simon's TAG and can't wait to read it...thanks to him for that being out there to try out!!

EDIT: Oh, wow, I just realized that you mentioned Budayeen Nights was on FW...that's new since my last visit to FW...just added it to my Kindle...weeee...

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

I once emails one of the Effinger fan sites and basically was told the same bummer story of other favorite writers of mine, for example Edward Abbey, that the estate/rights holder is either refusing to make the work available or nobody really knows who owns the rights or the rights holder wants an insane amount of cash for the rights.

In the case of Effinger, I'm pretty sure his ex-widow (they divorced amicably before he died) Barbara Hambly (also an excellent writer whom I highly recommend) probably owns his rights. I think she might have mentioned something of the sort on either her official website or the associated blog.

But the problem there is that a) Effinger's personal stuff apparently got caught in the New Orleans Hurricane Katrina disaster, and b) Hambly's having her own problems getting her rights-reverted backlist in e-ready format (apparently her agèd mother has been manually typing things up from the paper copies, Hambly having lost her electronic ones some years ago in a computer/hard drive crash).

So neither of them will be getting their older work out soon, though Hambly has been writing new novella-length stories in some of her popular settings and selling them at $5 a pop off her website. Unfortunately, while her webmaintainer is e-reader savvy enough to offer ePub and Mobi versions alongside the PDF, they're not quite savvy enough to offer all the formats in a single bundle instead of charging for each separately. But I'm buying anyway.

Originally Posted by brecklundin

I wish an agile company like Baen could make it their goal to try and get some of these neglected authors works...

I myself would dearly love some John Morressy, among many, many others. At least finish up the planned Kedrigern collections, which were left in limbo when a) Morressy suddenly died, b) his wife who owned the rights also died, c) Meisha Merlin collapsed in upon itself like a black hole, creating a singularity from which their upcoming catalogue could not escape.

It seems the last few novels and stories in that series were translated and sold exclusively to the Poland sf/fantasy market before that. I have no particular objections to learning Polish, but I don't even want to think about hunting down out-of-print Polish fantasy books and magazines…

Originally Posted by brecklundin

BTW, I was never even aware of the Barbarian Swordsperson works...THANKS, another set of stories I won't read before I croak.

I'll be merciful and not detail to you how amazingly hilarious and like, totally awesome they are, especially the ones which satirize classic sf like Burroughs' Mars and Asimov's Nightfall and modern clichés like MMPORGs.

Thanks for the Callahan recs. I've already read most of them, I think, but I should go back and see if Robinson's written any more since then. (He lives in my general geographic region, it turns out.)

Originally Posted by brecklundin

Anyway, sorry to Simon for the mini-jack of his thread!!! d'oh!!

Um... If he's living in Thailand and likes sf/fantasy, he might want to read some S.P. Somtow, who's written some amazing stuff, often incorporating Thai cultural stuff? And Somtow's not only an award-winning writer, but also an Eton/Oxford-educated near-member of the royal family (just barely missed the cutoff point for being counted as royal descent, but has an aunt who's an actual princess, IIRC) who also scores operas and directs films?

On a more advice-ish note, perhaps band together with a number of writers similar in style/taste and offer a periodic newsletter which gives updates, excerpts, and occasional discounts to subscribers?

Say, feature one writer each time as the "featured writer", do a little interview/snippet bit and offer a % off discount coupon for one work of theirs, maybe even a freebie for starters and % off other selected works if you liked the freebie, good until X date?

It helps you share out the "advertising" cost among a pool of like-minded colleagues, targets your promos at people who've actually signed up for and want them, and lets you reward your loyal readers who follow you without asking them to pony up more than they might want to give for a little something back in return, while also attracting newer potential readers who might take a chance with a coupon.

And if you gain a fairly large-ish pool of fellow writers and you've got lots of works between you, you could keep rotating between them for a long time before you run out of works to feature.

[brecklundin]

Wow, interesting stuff about Effinger and his wife, I knew they parted on good terms, I mean sometimes life just does not cooperate for good people. Bummer about the Katrina connection...that is genuinely sad and I can see the complications from that mess dragging out for a long time.

I definitely appreciate the tip on her site...added it to my check it out list as you and I seem to have similar likes in authors.

And oh, gee thanks so much for NOT telling me how fun the Swordsperson stories are...I mean that was great for you NOT to mention it...snickersnicker...

About Robinson, he is not writing much these days as Jeannie has cancer and at last check not looking like things will work out for the good. He still has his podcasts but I am not sure he will ever write again...but it also could be good therapy but they guy is no spring chicken anymore. If the world could only run as Callahan's Place what a great thing that could be...I actually used a bunch of my Audible credits to get all of his books they have because they are fun to listen to...oh, if you like Callahan, consider The Sam Gunn Omnibus by Ben Bova. All are basically short stories with no true theme other than something light and fun to read...well worth the effort and a nice bedtime or lunchtime read...

I love the idea of a group of genre related authors doing a newsletter, I am a big fan of the early cyberpunk writers but to be honest, these days my energy levels are so low I don't sleuth out the stories as I once did so I miss a lot of geed new stuff...oh, wait, isn't that a magazine like ummm, Asimov's thingy or the udder one? But really I see what you are thinking. I could see a portal type website that aggregated the author's existing blogs as a reasonably cost effective option...but I am sure this has been done already somewhere because, well not much new on the web these days...it seems to always have been done before...

BTW, thanks for the friendly chatter...very enjoyable!! Again, apologies to poor brushed aside Simon!! hehehehe...but after reading a bit of his site, somehow I sense he is kinda our sorta off-center anyway.

[simonroyle]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Um... If he's living in Thailand and likes sf/fantasy, he might want to read some S.P. Somtow, who's written some amazing stuff, often incorporating Thai cultural stuff? And Somtow's not only an award-winning writer, but

I like Khun Somtow's work, including his music. Other's of Bangkok ilk that you may enjoy would be John Burdett's series of work.

On the newsletter idea I think that works when you have a following ... the issue here is creating one. All in all we'll see how it goes.

The general opinion appears to be against the idea of a competition or a lottery of some sort, but I haven't thrown in the concept of the beach timeshare in Liberia or Guatemalan bearer bonds yet

[simonroyle]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

In the case of Effinger, I'm pretty sure his ex-widow (they divorced amicably before he died)

The alternative would have made a great story