Guess who just won the Nobel Peace Prize?

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Could you answer the question about what "liberal" means, please?

in america the term liberalism has been perverted. it used to mean "an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market" but the term has been taken over by people that are essentially socialists and marxists, ie. hillary clinton

ps. heres and article about the bais in gallop polls - http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.o...llybiased.html

[HarryT]

I'm afraid that I find the whole idea that out of something like 200,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable universe, each of which contains an average of about 300,000,000,000stars, the majority of which we now know have planetary systems, to claim that one out of billions of species (us) on an insignificant planet circling an insignicant star in a completely unremarkable galaxy are somehow "central" to the whole scheme of things is an example of the most breathtaking arrogance.

[jamesdmanley]

just say youre and atheist and that you think anyone that believes in a higher power is stupid and be done with it

[yvanleterrible]

Good grief people! Do we really have to do this here?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

in america the term liberalism has been perverted. it used to mean "an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market" but the term has been taken over by people that are essentially socialists and marxists, ie. hillary clinton

Thank you - it's interesting how words are used differently in different countries. In the UK, the word "Liberal" is only used to describe our "middle of the road" political party, the Liberal party. May I ask why you consider the BBC to be "liberal"? As I said in my original post, the BBC is apolitical - it has to be, by the terms of the charter under which it operates, and there's a completely independent governing body whose job it is to ensure that it really is. Heads roll when they get things wrong.

ps. heres and article about the bais in gallop polls - http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.o...llybiased.html

That's interesting, but do you think that a slight bias towards selecting white people to poll is going to account for a poll showing that 48% of people don't believe in evolution as an explanation for the origin of homo sapiens? Why would the colour of someone's skin affect their view of such matters?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

just say you're and atheist and that you think anyone that believes in a higher power is stupid and be done with it

What I would dearly love to find out is how the world would be today if we never had religion. We've had more harm done in the name of religion then any other cause. And that's a serious issue. I'm Jewish (very reformed). And I believe it's between me and God what happens. I don't try to force my believes on anyone. But when your believes cause you to do things that not only harm another person or effect me in some way that I don't agree with, then I'm sorry, it's you getting in my way and ruining things for me.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

just say youre and atheist and that you think anyone that believes in a higher power is stupid and be done with it

I certainly don't consider you to be stupid - it's obvious from your posts that you are an intelligent, educated man. If you're willing to discuss it, I'd be very interested indeed to hear what evidence exists to make a rational man such as yourself believe in the existance of God (if that is what you believe, of course).

As I said before, given the existance of at least:

60,000,000,000,000,000

stars out there (I think I've got the number of zeros right!), why do you think that we are "special"?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Good grief people! Do we really have to do this here?

This is the "Lounge" forum section, Yvan, which exists to discuss off-topic subjects. Where better to discuss it?

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's interesting, but do you think that a slight bias towards selecting white people to poll is going to account for a poll showing that 48% of people don't believe in evolution as an explanation for the origin of homo sapiens? Why would the colour of someone's skin affect their view of such matters?

its really easy to skiew any poll to get it to show whatever you would like. i dont think the skin color matters, but its clear that gallop polls should be taken with a grain of salt. as i quoted earlier, the question was skewed to make it show that anyone that believes in "god" agrees with the creationism theory at its is literally explained. thats is patently unfair as im sure a good percentage of those people wouldnt agree if you asked them in a more FAIR manner.

Originally Posted by HarryT

I certainly don't consider you to be stupid - it's obvious from your posts that you are an intelligent, educated man. If you're willing to discuss it, I'd be very interested indeed to hear what evidence exists to make a rational man such as yourself believe in the existance of God (if that is what you believe, of course).

well considering natures natural state is disorder i find it fantastically improbable that the minute complexities of life (just think about how complex dna is) could happen by chance or on accident.

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

well considering natures natural state is disorder i find it fantastically improbable that the minute complexities of life (just think about how complex dna is) could happen by chance or on accident.

Oh, I don't know about that...

[jamesdmanley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...thermodynamics

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

well considering natures natural state is disorder i find it fantastically improbable that the minute complexities of life (just think about how complex dna is) could happen by chance or on accident.

OK, let me offer you a alternate example:

Suppose you take 100 fair dice, and throw them. You will get a given set of results. What are the chances of getting that set of results? They are, approximately, 1 in 653,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000 (1 in 6 to the power 100)

Wow - talk about improbable! You could throw those 100 dice once every nanosecond for the lifetime of the universe, and you're still vanishingly unlikely to throw that same set of numbers!

So why did you get that specific set of numbers from the dice. Random chance, obviously.

I agree with you entirely that the formation of a molecule as complex as DNA through random chance is monstrously unlikely, but that point is that we live in the universe in which it happened, just as we live in the universe in which you threw that specific set of (probably) even more unlikely results on the dice.

We can't, therefore, turn around and say "what's the chance of that happening?" any more than most people would turn around and say that a divine being must have caused the set of numbers we threw on the dice. We already know that the outcome did happen. It's irrevelent how unlikely it is.

That, anyway, is my view of the universe. Random organic chemistry.

If you haven't read it, I'd strongly recommend to you the book "The Blind Watchmaker", by Richard Dawkins. He explains this stuff enormously better than I can.

[jamesdmanley]

im not sure i really follow your argument, but i dont disagree with anything youve said. of course we live in the universe in which it happened. if it happened somewhere else thats where we would be. i certainly dont think we are the only life in the universe. the odds are greatly against that, but i dont think it happens on accident. its just far too complex, precise, and fantastic.

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This is the "Lounge" forum section, Yvan, which exists to discuss off-topic subjects. Where better to discuss it?

Agreed to when its a discussion. The tone of the post preceeding mine was getting sour and borderline.
With years going by, there are explosive subject discussions I tend to refrain from joining in: Patriotism, religion and politics

[jamesdmanley]

but those are the best to discuss because opinions vary so widely and people are so passionate about them