With this attitude, is it any wonder new authors don't trust the system? - Page 5

NickSpalding · 08-05-2010, 05:24 AM

Popping my business head for a moment, there's probably money to be made somewhere along the line from this whole problem:

If agents shouldn't start charging for submitting work, maybe others could.

A group of publishing industry professionals with some spare time could club together, start a website that unpublished authors can submit their work to for evaluation, criticism and proofing ... before they send to the agents and publishers.

Charge $200 a time.

It'd rake it in

Redfox · 08-05-2010, 08:05 AM

There is, as they say, one born every minute

Steven Lake · 08-05-2010, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

If agents shouldn't start charging for submitting work, maybe others could.

Well, as great as the idea is, there comes two problems with this idea. First, "you pay us" vs traditional "we pay you" agent systems are one of the key tools to determining the difference between predators and true agents. The second is I fear that if agents forced you to pay for every time you submitted to them, only the really bad manuscripts would be submitted to them, because they would be done by the people who thought they were "all that". Having seen my publisher working with a few of his more "problematic" authors, I know just how big some egos can get. And the worst part is, the bigger the ego, the worse the book tends to be. I don't know if egotism is a natural defense mechanism for rampant insecurity due to intimate knowledge of one's inferiorities and shortcomings, but it sure seems like it.

Quote:

A group of publishing industry professionals with some spare time could club together, start a website that unpublished authors can submit their work to for evaluation, criticism and proofing ... before they send to the agents and publishers.

Well, the idea is sound, but that's what writers groups are for. Or at least in theory they are. But I guess for people with a lack of connections to such groups, something like that would be a good thing. In fact, it may actually at some point in time prove to be a door towards getting picked up by the big houses, as some of the paid editors might forward your manuscript up to a publishing house who then picks you up.

NickSpalding · 08-05-2010, 10:08 AM

Heh ... it was more a proposition for making money than helping authors if I'm honest. As I said, I had my business head on for a moment

Falbe Publishing · 08-05-2010, 10:21 AM

Many years ago I dutifully did the rounds sending query letters to agents. This was before they did submissions with email, and I came to the conclusion that the directions to include a self addressed stamped envelope was just a scam to get them free stamps. One just has to put a new label over my address.

I had an actual incident in which I emailed an agent who had requested a proposal for one of my nonfiction projects. After never hearing back about the requested materials, I sent an email and received the reply that she would send back my proposal if I sent postage. I angrily replied that I HAD sent a postage paid flat rate envelope with the proposal and what did you do with it? I think I busted her because she contritely mailed back my materials in her own envelope with new postage. That was the last time I bothered contacting an agent. Why bother?

I understand that agents are looking for material that they can sell, but it seems that most don't look very hard.

Steven Lake · 08-05-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falbe Publishing

Many years ago I dutifully did the rounds sending query letters to agents. This was before they did submissions with email, and I came to the conclusion that the directions to include a self addressed stamped envelope was just a scam to get them free stamps. One just has to put a new label over my address.

I had an actual incident in which I emailed an agent who had requested a proposal for one of my nonfiction projects. After never hearing back about the requested materials, I sent an email and received the reply that she would send back my proposal if I sent postage. I angrily replied that I HAD sent a postage paid flat rate envelope with the proposal and what did you do with it? I think I busted her because she contritely mailed back my materials in her own envelope with new postage. That was the last time I bothered contacting an agent. Why bother?

I understand that agents are looking for material that they can sell, but it seems that most don't look very hard.

Wow, I never had that happen to me. Or at least not that I'm aware of. Out of the 50 or so agent queries I sent out prior to going with my current publisher, only 3 never returned my envelop and never replied to me. My assumption was that I wasn't even worth their time to send a form reply to. Of course, on a side note, the reason I got so many rejections was because my skills at writing query letters at the time were epic levels of fail. (who was the lunatic who thought up the formatting for these things!?) I suspect that when I go give it another try with querying agents, I'm gonna need someone to sit down with me and explain query letters. Yeah, it might seem simple to some, but I look at them and go "huh?" Of course, as usual, that's probably because I'm overthinking the whole thing. heh.

neilmarr · 08-06-2010, 02:20 AM

Anyone struggling with query letters (not synopses) would be doing themselves a favour by spending a few minutes at http://www.queryshark.com for expert, no-holds-barred advice. Cheers. Neil

Redfox · 08-06-2010, 02:55 AM

Um, Neil, that URL belongs to a software company! QueryShark is a blog:

http://queryshark.blogspot.com/

neilmarr · 08-06-2010, 03:03 AM

Woops ... sorry Redfox. My slip, and unforgivable because I've kept up with the blog for a long, long time. The advice is great, but what I love most is the unstinting praise on the very rare occasion when someone gets it right first time. There's no lesson quite so effective as good example. Cheers. Neil

PS: Here's karma to ya for spotting and correcting my blooper. Thanks. N

Redfox · 08-06-2010, 10:58 AM

Thanks, Neil!

I used to be a production editor (non-fiction), so I have a hawk eye for textual errors. The suggestion earlier, of deliberately putting a typo in a page to check if it's been read, is just anathema to me

neilmarr · 08-06-2010, 11:59 AM

***The suggestion earlier, of deliberately putting a typo in a page to check if it's been read, is just anathema to me***

Me too, Redfox, but it's one way for an author to be sure the submission has been properly read before rejection so that you can suss out whether the rejection is based on style and content rather than a glance at an opening paragrph.

I don't mean something that might be understandably overlooked, but something so obvious that's easily, painlessly corrected or pointed out by a practiced eye ... maybe something like th?is.

Remember that I'm not talking serious editing at this stage (when the author should strive to present perfect copy), but checking the value of a submission rejection from an acquisitions editor who claims to have read a partial. Apart from this one clear typo, everything else should be spot on.

Cheers. Neil

Redfox · 08-06-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Me too, Redfox, but it's one way for an author to be sure the submission has been properly read before rejection so that you can suss out whether the rejection is based on style and content rather than a glance at an opening paragrph.

See, you thought you could slip that one past me

Anyway, if someone isn't sufficiently captivated by my opening page to read more, I probably don't want them as an agent. Most likely it means they don't like my style and voice, which is not something they can fix.

Steven Lake · 08-06-2010, 03:25 PM

Thanks for the link, Neilmarr. I'll put that in my bookmarks and make good use of it!

M T McGuire · 08-13-2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

So in short, unless you're already published (be it self, POD, or PTP) and well known, plus successful, your chances of getting picked up are nearly zero. Kinda like your chances of winning the lottery. Ya know, I wonder if publishers put that disclaimer on their submission process (IE, you have a 1 in 10 million chance of being accepted!) if it would automatically remove all the dead weight.

This may be true but then... Alan Turing's chances of breaking the enigma code were fifteen million, million to one... and he succeeded... says the woman following the Aaron dooberry Aiming at Amazon model!

Cheers

MTM

neilmarr · 08-13-2010, 02:44 AM

Hya MTM: I take your point, but it ain't much like a lottery in that lotto is 100% sheer chance. A wrirter can at least greatly lessen the odds against with perfect presentation of suerior work ... targetted well. There is an emelent of luck involved each time you submit an ms, of course, but again perseverance is a mighty weapon and gives you another spin of the wheel with each new submission. Best wishes.

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08-05-2010, 05:24 AM	#61
NickSpalding Addict Posts: 270 Karma: 1041222 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle	Popping my business head for a moment, there's probably money to be made somewhere along the line from this whole problem: If agents shouldn't start charging for submitting work, maybe others could. A group of publishing industry professionals with some spare time could club together, start a website that unpublished authors can submit their work to for evaluation, criticism and proofing ... before they send to the agents and publishers. Charge $200 a time. It'd rake it in

08-05-2010, 08:05 AM	#62
Redfox aka Anne Lyle Posts: 85 Karma: 437516 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cambridge, UK Device: Sony PRS-600	There is, as they say, one born every minute

08-05-2010, 10:08 AM	#64
NickSpalding Addict Posts: 270 Karma: 1041222 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle	Heh ... it was more a proposition for making money than helping authors if I'm honest. As I said, I had my business head on for a moment

08-05-2010, 10:21 AM	#65
Falbe Publishing Gadget Slave Posts: 264 Karma: 600001 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Battle Creek, Michigan Device: Sony PRS505SC	Many years ago I dutifully did the rounds sending query letters to agents. This was before they did submissions with email, and I came to the conclusion that the directions to include a self addressed stamped envelope was just a scam to get them free stamps. One just has to put a new label over my address. I had an actual incident in which I emailed an agent who had requested a proposal for one of my nonfiction projects. After never hearing back about the requested materials, I sent an email and received the reply that she would send back my proposal if I sent postage. I angrily replied that I HAD sent a postage paid flat rate envelope with the proposal and what did you do with it? I think I busted her because she contritely mailed back my materials in her own envelope with new postage. That was the last time I bothered contacting an agent. Why bother? I understand that agents are looking for material that they can sell, but it seems that most don't look very hard.

08-06-2010, 02:20 AM	#67
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	Anyone struggling with query letters (not synopses) would be doing themselves a favour by spending a few minutes at http://www.queryshark.com for expert, no-holds-barred advice. Cheers. Neil

08-06-2010, 02:55 AM	#68
Redfox aka Anne Lyle Posts: 85 Karma: 437516 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cambridge, UK Device: Sony PRS-600	Um, Neil, that URL belongs to a software company! QueryShark is a blog: http://queryshark.blogspot.com/

08-06-2010, 03:03 AM	#69
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	Woops ... sorry Redfox. My slip, and unforgivable because I've kept up with the blog for a long, long time. The advice is great, but what I love most is the unstinting praise on the very rare occasion when someone gets it right first time. There's no lesson quite so effective as good example. Cheers. Neil PS: Here's karma to ya for spotting and correcting my blooper. Thanks. N

08-06-2010, 10:58 AM	#70
Redfox aka Anne Lyle Posts: 85 Karma: 437516 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cambridge, UK Device: Sony PRS-600	Thanks, Neil! I used to be a production editor (non-fiction), so I have a hawk eye for textual errors. The suggestion earlier, of deliberately putting a typo in a page to check if it's been read, is just anathema to me

08-06-2010, 11:59 AM	#71
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	*The suggestion earlier, of deliberately putting a typo in a page to check if it's been read, is just anathema to me* Me too, Redfox, but it's one way for an author to be sure the submission has been properly read before rejection so that you can suss out whether the rejection is based on style and content rather than a glance at an opening paragrph. I don't mean something that might be understandably overlooked, but something so obvious that's easily, painlessly corrected or pointed out by a practiced eye ... maybe something like th?is. Remember that I'm not talking serious editing at this stage (when the author should strive to present perfect copy), but checking the value of a submission rejection from an acquisitions editor who claims to have read a partial. Apart from this one clear typo, everything else should be spot on. Cheers. Neil

08-06-2010, 03:25 PM	#73
Steven Lake Sci-Fi Author Posts: 1,158 Karma: 14743509 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Device: PC (Calibre)	Thanks for the link, Neilmarr. I'll put that in my bookmarks and make good use of it!

08-13-2010, 02:44 AM	#75
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	Hya MTM: I take your point, but it ain't much like a lottery in that lotto is 100% sheer chance. A wrirter can at least greatly lessen the odds against with perfect presentation of suerior work ... targetted well. There is an emelent of luck involved each time you submit an ms, of course, but again perseverance is a mighty weapon and gives you another spin of the wheel with each new submission. Best wishes.