Is this a horrible time to be a writer?

[Lemurion]

I really don't like the "pay to play" mindset of most publishing services and wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. I want my books released by a company that's looking for money from someone other than me.

For all that people rag on commercial publishers, they are light years beyond most pay to publish services. Those are the companies charging authors an arm and a leg to destroy their hopes and dreams.

Commercial publishers aren't the ones selling people their own books; books that in many cases aren't even allowed in bookstores.

I can understand the desire for complete control that leads people to self-publish, but stay away from pay to publish services.

**Disclaimer** I have both managed a bookstore and worked for a pay to publish service.**end Disclaimer**

I've noticed people saying that one advantage of self-publishing is that they can get the book out immediately, without the normal 12-18 month delay; and then start work on the next book. That's how commercial publishing works too, you finish one book and start the other. The differences are that you've been paid for the book long before it gets into the bookstore, and that you can devote your time to writing because the publisher is doing the work of making sure your books are available for sale.

As a rule, self-published authors have much less time for writing than commercially published ones. Much less time.

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I really don't like the "pay to play" mindset of most publishing services and wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. I want my books released by a company that's looking for money from someone other than me.

For all that people rag on commercial publishers, they are light years beyond most pay to publish services. Those are the companies charging authors an arm and a leg to destroy their hopes and dreams.

To some degree, your statement about PTP and POD houses is correct. However, I state *to some degree*. If you're talking Xibris, or Author House, then you're 100% right. They're in it to rob you blind, take your money, and leave you high and dry. Same goes for POD publishers. However, there are a handful of PTP publishing houses that are on the same level as the big traditional publishing houses like Baen, Simon & Schuster, and Random House.

The only difference between the traditional houses and the good PTP houses in this case was that you had to pay the initial publishing cost up front. After that the company itself handled everything else for you. A good guide to determining who's legit, and who's just after your money is to see how much they charge you for stuff, what they charge you for, and how they market your book.

If they won't market it, save for you paying them crazy amounts of money to do it, then avoid them like the plague. Same goes if they make you pay for ever jot and tittle. But if they only make you cover the startup costs and then handle everything else for you from there, then you're golden. I myself found several PTP houses like that before settling on my current publisher, and he's been utterly awesome in more ways than I can even begin to list. Working with him has been like being treated as royalty vs what I got from some other PTP publishing houses like Amazon who have the "cattle" mentality about their authors.

So saying that all PTP publishing houses are

[Lemurion]

Steve,

I took a look at your publisher's website, and from what I can see they are on the higher end of pay to publish services. However that still doesn't put them on the same level as a commercial publisher, even a small press.

They're marketing to authors, not to readers.

They don't appear to have a distributor, and so any bookstore placement is going to be local, rather than chain, which really limits your books' exposure.

They don't appear to be an author mill, but they are clearly treating authors as customers rather than suppliers, and that means their focus cannot be on getting your books sold the same way a commercial publisher's would be. It's simple economics, they get most of their money from authors, so their marketing focus is going to have to be on selling publishing to authors, rather than books to readers. It's a rational decision, if they didn't do it that way they would go out of business, but their best interest is much more divergent from yours than that of a commercial publisher.

I'm glad you're happy with them, but they're not as good a solution as even a royalties-only small press.

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

They don't appear to have a distributor, and so any bookstore placement is going to be local, rather than chain, which really limits your books' exposure.

Nope. He's got all our books in Ingram (wow, was that a pain) and several other major distributors, so our books are available nationwide, and depending on the type of book, internationally as well. He's especially got our books in B&N, Borders, Amazon, and all the other major book stores. The only place he doesn't have us is in Walmart, but that's expected since they're a bunch of pricks. So he does have us all over the place and the marketing he does for the books is good. It may not show it on his website, but he does reach out to readers really well and he's got a good distribution chain. Especially since the majority of his income is from selling to readers, and not just from signing authors.

I'm glad you're happy with them, but they're not as good a solution as even a royalties-only small press.

I researched all the big and small presses that were royalty only, and unless you're some huge seller, you're treated like cattle. In fact, even then you're still treated like cattle, just to a lesser degree. I didn't like that, and in fact, it turned me off to going with any of them. Being very hands on with my current publisher, talking to him face to face about ideas and getting feedback, working side by side at signings, shows and conventions, and so much more really sold me on him.

What I did to test him out was to give him one of my "low impact" books (ie, a book that has little or no impact on me as a writer, and thus can be sacrificed as a test to try out a new publisher) and let him go to town on it. I was so blown away with how awesome he did with that one low impact book that I gave him the rest of my stuff!

The low impact novel idea was suggested to me by a friend after diving head first into Amazon's nightmare POD system (I didn't know any better and only did it on the recommendation of some people who I later found out were trying to ruin me out of jealousy) and coming out a wounded bird. And the idea works really well, because even though you have to do a bit of extra writing to make it work, it will allow you to take the research you've done and test out a given publisher to be sure they're a right fit for you. If not, you're not out much. If they are, then you've gained some important insight and knowledge, and the way is now open for you to take the rest of your books to this new publisher knowing everything you need to about them.

And also, don't let this little diatribe seem like I'm saying you're wrong. For each person, the "perfect course of action" is different. For you, traditional publishing houses were the better route to go. For me it was the PTP route. And not just any PTP, but a specific one. At some point I may go the more traditional route, but given how badly they treat you, and how much they'll maul your book once you give it to them (IE, they'll force you to rewrite your story in ways you don't want them to) unless you have sales numbers backing you up and giving you the power to stop that, I likely never will.

I may sound a little idealistic saying that, but I've spent the last 15 years of my life in the Open Source world where everyone is treated like human beings, not cash machines. That MOB (method of business) drives me nuts in ways I can't even articulate. It's one reason I've been so hopping mad at Walmart, primarily because of their attitude that "we don't need you, you need us, so you will either sell to us at the price we ask, or you can go elsewhere" rubbed me nine ways wrong. I'm glad my publisher is handling those negotiations or I might have reached across the table and strangled their negotiator for being a prude. ^_^;; Amazon has been more or less the same. Their attitude is "We're Amazon. Deal with it."

Of course, on the flipside has been the ones who have been really nice to me. B&N has been awesome, and really does a great job of taking care of the authors they deal with, both directly and through a publisher, Astak (aka EZread) has also been awesome, and one of my best experiences in the ebook world, as well as dozens of other stores, both B&M and virtual. So as you can see, the route I'm taking now is the one I'm most comfortable with, and the one that works best for me at this time.

So in short, there is no magic solution that works for every writer. Each needs to find out what works best for them. And I will dare to say that for some self publishing and PTP is actually best. POD and vanity press however is not, nor is it ever. The only exception I can think of is if you're not after a mass market. In a case like that, vanity press *is* the better solution. I know of one lady who sells cookbooks at craft shows all over the US. It has no ISBN, nor is it listed in Ingram or any major distributor. And yet she sells something like 10,000 copies a year. So for her, POD was the best solution.

Anywho, I'll stop talking. I'm already writing a small novel here as it is.

[dadioflex]

Edit.

[DaringNovelist]

Originally Posted by dadioflex

"I know of one lady who sells cookbooks at craft shows all over the US. It has no ISBN, nor is it listed in Ingram or any major distributor. And yet she sells something like 10,000 copies a year."

No she doesn't.

Hey, we can ALL make statements without any facts to back them up. Wow.

***Oh, if she was selling 10000 copies a year and using a POD service then she was dumber than a rock. You can get legit print runs third-partied for a fraction of what that would cost, never mind if you were factoring in 3-5 years worth of stock. Heck, she has no ISBN, it's not like the IRS will sniff her out, so she could do it and drip feed the income as necessary. Assuming she feels the need.

Actually I know a number of people who do that. They don't usually use POD services though. They use regular printers - crafters who are successful tend to be very savvy business people.

Fairs and craft shows are a whole different animal from the rest of publishing. If you have the right stuff to do it, go for it, but selling books that way is like being a crafter yourself. Long long long hours and a lot of expense, a lot of paperwork and book-keeping. You have to keep it up.

Camille

[dadioflex]

Edit.

[DaringNovelist]

Originally Posted by dadioflex

So... what? You're agreeing with me? Good.

I was just pointing out that the person you were disagreeing with was not wrong. (Edit: Okay he did say POD - but in the context I took his meaning as not the technology but the fact that the woman did it on her own, not through a publisher.)

Camille

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by dadioflex

"I know of one lady who sells cookbooks at craft shows all over the US. It has no ISBN, nor is it listed in Ingram or any major distributor. And yet she sells something like 10,000 copies a year."

No she doesn't.

Actually, yes she does. I've seen the order receipts. (Plus I know the guy who does her POD runs) About once every year around February she swings by, orders 10,000 books, picks them up, and then hits the road again. So yeah, she sells them like hotcakes. And yes, it's technically a self published cookbook. It's like DaringNovelist said, with the right connections and the right skills, you can sell books like mad.

Originally Posted by DaringNovelist

I was just pointing out that the person you were disagreeing with was not wrong. (Edit: Okay he did say POD - but in the context I took his meaning as not the technology but the fact that the woman did it on her own, not through a publisher.)

Camille

Correct. A POD printer doesn't necessarily need to be a publisher too, such as is the case with a vanity press. In this case the POD she goes through is a local print shop who is large enough to do runs like that for her at a good price. In fact, they also do POD for a lot of self published authors as well. And when I said POD, I did not mean "vanity press" just FYI. Print on Demand can be done by a regular print shop. In fact, that's technically what they do anyways. You demand, they print.

But the one around here is specifically setup to do orders like that. Just phone in the order and pick it up a few days later. Of course, their rule they use to determine the total amount of time it takes to do a print run is something like this: 1000 books = 1 day production time. So for every 1000 books you order, it'll take 1 day total processing time. So for her 10,000 book order, she'd phone it in on Monday, and pick it up the following Friday.

[Worldwalker]

Holy cow, what's in that cookbook?

[foreverjuly]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Holy cow, what's in that cookbook?

Haha that's what I want to know! 10,000 a year? Must be something a lot better than apple pie!

[NickSpalding]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I want my books released by a company that's looking for money from someone other than me.

I've noticed people saying that one advantage of self-publishing is that they can get the book out immediately, without the normal 12-18 month delay; and then start work on the next book. That's how commercial publishing works too, you finish one book and start the other. The differences are that you've been paid for the book long before it gets into the bookstore, and that you can devote your time to writing because the publisher is doing the work of making sure your books are available for sale.

As a rule, self-published authors have much less time for writing than commercially published ones. Much less time.

This. I can understand the appeal of some wanting to go the POD route, but I seriously can't get my head around the idea that anyone would choose self-publishing over commercial publishing - or indeed would think it's a better way to be an author.

The fact is commercial publishers will publish a book they think will make them money. It's the same with the acting industry and the music industry - hell, it's the same with any part of the entertainment industry.

Provide a great, commercial product and you will get representation and you will get published. You can't guarantee huge riches or massive success - but the chances of being able to make a living as writer are made possible by a relationship with a traditional publisher - who don't want to make a cent off of you, but do want your books to make them a fat chunk of change from the public.

Self-publishing should be for people who either don't really care about being full time authors and just want people to read their work - or, and let's be frank here - for people who's work just isn't good enough to be commercially published, but might find a small, niche audience through self-publishing.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

This. I can understand the appeal of some wanting to go the POD route, but I seriously can't get my head around the idea that anyone would choose self-publishing over commercial publishing - or indeed would think it's a better way to be an author.

The fact is commercial publishers will publish a book they think will make them money. It's the same with the acting industry and the music industry - hell, it's the same with any part of the entertainment industry.

Provide a great, commercial product and you will get representation and you will get published. You can't guarantee huge riches or massive success - but the chances of being able to make a living as writer are made possible by a relationship with a traditional publisher - who don't want to make a cent off of you, but do want your books to make them a fat chunk of change from the public.

Self-publishing should be for people who either don't really care about being full time authors and just want people to read their work - or, and let's be frank here - for people who's work just isn't good enough to be commercially published, but might find a small, niche audience through self-publishing.

It's for the very same reasons that bands start up their own labels, actors still work in the theatre and writers now turn to the digital. Freedom. If you want to be tied down to some mega-corp and the feckless idiots who work the ladder within that corp, go for it. You're just another company man then, another yes-sir, no-sir, three-bags full hired gun. If you need the permission of a company to value your own creation, then that speaks volumes for that creation. Now you're making a product, not art, not literature. You may as well be flogging Cornflakes.

[NickSpalding]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

It's for the very same reasons that bands start up their own labels, actors still work in the theatre and writers now turn to the digital. Freedom. If you want to be tied down to some mega-corp and the feckless idiots who work the ladder within that corp, go for it. You're just another company man then, another yes-sir, no-sir, three-bags full hired gun. If you need the permission of a company to value your own creation, then that speaks volumes for that creation. Now you're making a product, not art, not literature. You may as well be flogging Cornflakes.

Freedom is great. So is paying the bills.

A piece of creative fiction is a product - just as much as anything else somebody makes.

I write because I love doing it, love making literature - but gosh darn it, I also know I'm trying to create a product other people will want to read.

More people will read it if I'm an author with and agent and a publisher behind me.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

Freedom is great. So is paying the bills.

A piece of creative fiction is a product - just as much as anything else somebody makes.

I write because I love doing it, love making literature - but gosh darn it, I also know I'm trying to create a product other people will want to read.

More people will read it if I'm an author with and agent and a publisher behind me.

Oh, here we go again, the paying the bills argument.

Okay, if you were actually serious about paying the bills with writing why would you write that DRM-laden thing you're trying to flog on here? Even a cursory glance at the market (now or in the last thirty years) will show you that your work is too quirky and does not have any obvious place on the shelves. You're not a celebrity, you have no status in literary circles, and the background story, although interesting, does not transfer to the likes of Tesco and Asda (where a lot of books are sold).

You're defending a system you'll never be granted access to. A system that would reject your work out of hand. They don't want quirky. They don't want individuals. They want series, young adult novels, paranormal bullshit and sentimental romances with a dash of time travel on the side, ghost-written stories with the names of bean-brained ex-glamour models plastered over the front.

Seriously, have a look at that industry you want to be part of and then take a look at what you're producing.