World Wide Education Scores - or why China wins

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by obs20

In the USA the current trend is towards school choice and vouchers but this finding from the report should give us pause.

I agree completely. The public school system should be where we are focusing to improve it and create better citizens.

[ProfCrash]

Our scores might not be great but our system does give every student who wants to a chance to succeed. In Europe or Asia I would never have been allowed to continue with college prep classes because my learning disabilities prevented me from testing well. In the US, I ended up in AP classes, passing AP exams, and earning a PhD.

When I was teaching at the University level it was not uncommon to have one of my Asian born exchange students come up and complain that the class required too much work. They were used to a system that you studied hard to get into high school and college but once you got into college it was an easy ride. They were disappointed to realize that the US tends to do things a bit differently.

[Sweetpea]

I had heard we were tenth in the reading part, and only Finland was above us, of the European countries. But the other two subjects we didn't do badly either...

Originally Posted by rhadin

Makes me wonder if teachers have a tenure system in all those other countries. Randi Weingarten does point out that most are unionized, but unionization doesn't necessarily equal tenure system where lousy teachers can never be removed.

What's a tenure system? And Unionization?

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Our scores might not be great but our system does give every student who wants to a chance to succeed. In Europe or Asia I would never have been allowed to continue with college prep classes because my learning disabilities prevented me from testing well. In the US, I ended up in AP classes, passing AP exams, and earning a PhD.

Here, if you have a learning disability, you will go to a specific highschool and end up doing exactly the same end exam as you would have had you gone to the "normal" highschool. Only the way of teaching is different, not the subject. At the end of highschool, every single student will do exactly the same examination as every other student of your level. Even if you live abroad, and you followed the Dutch school system (such as the Antilles), you will do exactly the same exams. Even at exactly the same time...

[beppe]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Makes me wonder if teachers have a tenure system in all those other countries. Randi Weingarten does point out that most are unionized, but unionization doesn't necessarily equal tenure system where lousy teachers can never be removed.

It is a substantial problem in my country, not only with school (which is the most critical and important, because it controls our future). It happens that a public function is monitored, controlled and eventually financed more for the advantage of the functionaries than for the public.

It is the old gild system carried to excesses and it constitutes the backbone of fascism.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

What's a tenure system? And Unionization?

In the United States, most public school teachers belong to a trade union of teachers. The union bargains for pay, benefits, and protections.

In the early 1950s, as a reaction to MacCarthyism and past practices in local school districts, many states passed laws to protect teachers. After so many years (usually 3), a teacher either has to be fired or, if not fired, given tenure. Tenure means that the teacher can no longer be fired except for very specific reasons, which are very limited, and only after lengthy administrative hearings and appeals. The idea was to prevent teachers being fired because someone disagreed with their political views; it has morphed into the permanent employment act for teachers.

In many states, tenured teachers can only be fired if they have abused students. Merely being incompetent is insufficient. And even where incompetency is recognized as a ground for dismissal, it is almost impossible to prove and very costly. If you search the New York Times for teacher firings, you will find articles that explain the problem. Today's New York Times had a front page article on the current status of the subject in New York City.

Teacher unions, even when all other teachers agree that a particular teacher is incompetent, fight any dismissal attempts.

Tenure and teacher unions have become a major problem in U.S. education.

[obs20]

Before we go about bashing teachers unions maybe we should look at the facts. It appears that school systems which are not unionized have a lower percentage of teachers fired than unionized systems

In California, with its “powerful” teachers’ union, school administrators fire, on average, 6.91% of its probationary teachers. In non-union North Carolina, that figure is only 1.38%.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...nteachers.html

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by rhadin

In the United States, most public school teachers belong to a trade union of teachers. The union bargains for pay, benefits, and protections.

In the early 1950s, as a reaction to MacCarthyism and past practices in local school districts, many states passed laws to protect teachers. After so many years (usually 3), a teacher either has to be fired or, if not fired, given tenure. Tenure means that the teacher can no longer be fired except for very specific reasons, which are very limited, and only after lengthy administrative hearings and appeals. The idea was to prevent teachers being fired because someone disagreed with their political views; it has morphed into the permanent employment act for teachers.

In many states, tenured teachers can only be fired if they have abused students. Merely being incompetent is insufficient. And even where incompetency is recognized as a ground for dismissal, it is almost impossible to prove and very costly. If you search the New York Times for teacher firings, you will find articles that explain the problem. Today's New York Times had a front page article on the current status of the subject in New York City.

Teacher unions, even when all other teachers agree that a particular teacher is incompetent, fight any dismissal attempts.

Tenure and teacher unions have become a major problem in U.S. education.

I can't speak for all areas, but for here, the teachers union is a joke, about as effective as a soggy kleenex.

There is no 'tenure'. No 'seniority'. Administration can fire at will, whether its a bad teacher or a great one.

Don't be so naive as to think administrative powers choose to keep the good ones. They are the ones who refuse to goose step to the party line.

I''ve said it before, and I'll say it again.

Until parents and students are held equally responsible for education, throwing all the money in the world, and whining about 'inferior' schools will be useless.

[treetotree]

"Until parents and students are held equally responsible for education"

Desertgrandma
I fully agree. we need to fix U.S.A. schools. I think not all children can go on to college. Some need to go to vocational school. We still need tradesman.
Teachers need to be able to dicipline there students. Disruptive students should be expelled. The heck with political correctness. Students who can should be seperated from students who can't. Like minded should be grouped together. How can you soar like an eagle when you are hanging out with turkeys?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by treetotree

"Until parents and students are held equally responsible for education"
Desertgrandma
I fully agree. I also think not all children can go on to college. Some need to go to vocational school. We still need tradesman.
Teachers need to be able to dicipline there students. Disruptive students should be expelled. The heck with political correctness. Students who can should be seperated from students who can't. Like minded should be grouped together. How can you soar like an eagle when you are hanging out with turkeys?

Thank you. I totally agree.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by treetotree

"Until parents and students are held equally responsible for education"

Desertgrandma
I fully agree. we need to fix U.S.A. schools. I think not all children can go on to college. Some need to go to vocational school. We still need tradesman.
Teachers need to be able to dicipline there students. Disruptive students should be expelled. The heck with political correctness. Students who can should be seperated from students who can't. Like minded should be grouped together. How can you soar like an eagle when you are hanging out with turkeys?

which is exactly why "No child left behind" was so devastating to our education system!

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by kennyc

which is exactly why "No child left behind" was so devastating to our education system!

You have to wonder what they were thinking.

In classrooms I've been in, teachers struggle to teach equally bright students, students with anger management issues, severe learning disabilities, lack of sleep and a decent breakfast.

Not, mind you, because of poverty, because the parents don't care enough to get up early enough to make sure they eat, and God forbid they should make the kids go to bed early. Tardiness is 'okay' in these parents minds,

Yes, there are bad teachers out there.

But, there are way more good, caring ones who struggle daily to reach them all.

[kennyc]

And I just ran across this:

China to lead world in innovation by 2020 - survey

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6B406E20101205

[Graham]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And I just ran across this:

China to lead world in innovation by 2020 - survey

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6B406E20101205

It doesn't surprise me in the least; nor that India will be in second place. I spent about 18 months running a project out in the Asia Pacific region between 2005 and 2007, including about 4 months each living in Beijing and Tokyo, and several months each in Delhi and Hong Kong. I also got to work in Taipei and Seoul.

There's a palpable sense of dynamic optimism out there - everywhere but Tokyo - an excitement that things are getting better very fast and that hard work will get you anywhere. It's a youthful feeling, quite extraordinary. Working in Europe and the US feels tired and cynical by comparison.

Graham

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Graham

It doesn't surprise me in the least; nor that India will be in second place. I spent about 18 months running a project out in the Asia Pacific region between 2005 and 2007, including about 4 months each living in Beijing and Tokyo, and several months each in Delhi and Hong Kong. I also got to work in Taipei and Seoul.

There's a palpable sense of dynamic optimism out there - everywhere but Tokyo - an excitement that things are getting better very fast and that hard work will get you anywhere. It's a youthful feeling, quite extraordinary. Working in Europe and the US feels tired and cynical by comparison.

Graham

Interesting. Thanks for that experienced perspective.