Fictionwise SF Sale!

[Renaldo]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Back on topic, I did a filter on the SF category to only show multiformat and then skimmed past all the magazines and obvious 'not my thing' titles. I browsed the whole remainder in about ten minutes and bought eight books with micropay credit. Fun times! Since I got the Sony, I am much less likely to buy secure eReader. I can read it on my iPod Touch, but not on the Sony so the multiformat is a much better value.

Trying to get the thread back on topic...

Can I ask what you purchased? I'm looking for some reccomendations. This is a good deal, and I'd like to pick up a handful (does that even work w/ digital media? LOL).

[deety]

Originally Posted by sirbruce

"Horseplay" is a commonly recognized reason for consent even when it's not explicit. People joke around. Not everyone so uptight, and I don't think a reasonable woman would feel threatened by such a grope in such a context.

I apologize if this draws out the derail, and I understand that you're just trying to defend someone you respect. But I just have to say that I find it disturbing that you seem to imply that a woman who would mind being treated in this way is unreasonable or uptight.

It's not acceptable to spontaneously grope someone as a joke. This is especially true when they are in a public setting related to their profession, and may likely feel obligated to laugh it off and have some "boys will be boys" reaction even if they don't feel that way.

I have several guy friends who it's not unusual to find me horsing around with, they would probably find the idea of me being considered "uptight" pretty amusing. None of them would jokingly touch a woman in a sexual manner, because they would find that as disrespectful as I do. Now I don't get too upset over anything that someone says to or about me. But if any man (or woman for that matter) thought it would be a laugh riot to grab my boob, they better not be too uptight to mind the hilarious slapstick-inspired bit of comedy gold that I like to think of as "punching them in the face."

Having said that, I wouldn't condemn someone as a sexist pig over one incident. But I also wouldn't try to downplay the inappropriateness of a friend's actions just because I liked them.

[koland]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

Trying to get the thread back on topic...

Can I ask what you purchased? I'm looking for some reccomendations. This is a good deal, and I'd like to pick up a handful (does that even work w/ digital media? LOL).

Has anyone purchased Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy at FW? It's in the sale and I just noticed that this title just got pulled at Amazon (which usually means a formatting issue). How does FW's version look?

[dschill]

^^ i would like to know the same thing

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by sirbruce

"Horseplay" is a commonly recognized reason for consent even when it's not explicit. People joke around. Not everyone so uptight, and I don't think a reasonable woman would feel threatened by such a grope in such a context.

You lack the anatomy, and the history, to decide what a "reasonable woman" would find threatening.

How many mild, friendly groping sessions have you participated in, wherein you wished to stop, and had to resort to yelling or violence to do so? How many did you let continue anyway, because you were afraid of violence if you stopped? If you polled a dozen of your male friends, how many have had that happen to them?

The same thing that allows one to make "black jokes" or "white jokes" without automatically making someone a racist. Oh, but I suppose you don't believe that's possible in your PC-compliant universe, either.

I believe it's possible to make racist jokes without being a full-time racist. I don't believe that make the jokes themselves less racist.

However, I think the constant charge of sexism against him is simply not supported. Hell, I wouldn't even claim Bill Clinton is sexist, although he certainly is a womanizer.

As I mentioned--you don't have the perspective necessary to decide who's "really" a sexist. It's because of opinions like yours that I have to give my daughters hour-long lectures before going to conventions--because a lot of men think "a little bit" of groping is harmless and therefore unobjectionable, and because of that support, the real creeps have a free pass to grope any number of women until they find one who's too scared or confused to object.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

You lack the anatomy, and the history, to decide what a "reasonable woman" would find threatening.

How many mild, friendly groping sessions have you participated in, wherein you wished to stop, and had to resort to yelling or violence to do so? How many did you let continue anyway, because you were afraid of violence if you stopped? If you polled a dozen of your male friends, how many have had that happen to them?



I believe it's possible to make racist jokes without being a full-time racist. I don't believe that make the jokes themselves less racist.



As I mentioned--you don't have the perspective necessary to decide who's "really" a sexist. It's because of opinions like yours that I have to give my daughters hour-long lectures before going to conventions--because a lot of men think "a little bit" of groping is harmless and therefore unobjectionable, and because of that support, the real creeps have a free pass to grope any number of women until they find one who's too scared or confused to object.

Couldn't agree more on all the points you made. What I would have liked to have seen happen when Ellison groped that woman was her to turn around and knee the little git in the rattlers. Genius he may be, to some, but there's nothing quite so levelling as getting your plumbs kicked in

[Lemurion]

I renewed my subscription to Analog - $19.62 vs $43.99 cover.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

Trying to get the thread back on topic...

Can I ask what you purchased? I'm looking for some reccomendations. This is a good deal, and I'd like to pick up a handful (does that even work w/ digital media? LOL).

Aethereal Trilogy Megabook by Christopher W. Wilcox, Sr.
And Then the Town Took Off by Richard Wilson
Time Enough at Last: Stories that Inspired Classic Episode by Jean Marie Stine
All for Naught by John E. Stith
Philip K. Dick High by David Bischoff
Witness Protection by Atk. Butterfly
The Old Man From the Stars by Glenn Devlin

[sirbruce]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

You lack the anatomy, and the history, to decide what a "reasonable woman" would find threatening.

Ahh, so the female worldview is automatically correct and the male worldview automatically wrong. No, let me refine that; only *your* worldview is correct; if a woman were to disagree with your definitions, you would no doubt downplay their opinion as one that's been damaged by the inherent sexism in our male-dominated society. QED.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

How many mild, friendly groping sessions have you participated in, wherein you wished to stop, and had to resort to yelling or violence to do so?

At least two. Many more that did not start "mild, friendly".

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

How many did you let continue anyway, because you were afraid of violence if you stopped?

None. If I wished it to stop and it didn't, it already *was* violence. Note that it wasn't violence *until* that point.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If you polled a dozen of your male friends, how many have had that happen to them?

I have no idea. In any case, you lack the requisite anatomy and history to understand how males react to such things.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I believe it's possible to make racist jokes without being a full-time racist. I don't believe that make the jokes themselves less racist.

So it's possible for a non-racist to commit a racist act. Therefore, it's possible for non-sexist to commit a sexist act. So one cannot conclude that Harlan is a sexist just because he committed a sexist act.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

As I mentioned--you don't have the perspective necessary to decide who's "really" a sexist.

Seems like both sexes would have the same handicap.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's because of opinions like yours that I have to give my daughters hour-long lectures before going to conventions--because a lot of men think "a little bit" of groping is harmless and therefore unobjectionable, and because of that support, the real creeps have a free pass to grope any number of women until they find one who's too scared or confused to object.

Or Heaven forbid grope one who actually enjoys it. Because women should never be allowed to enjoy the touch of an evil man.

I feel sorry for your daughters. And with that, I think we're done here.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by sirbruce

So it's possible for a non-racist to commit a racist act. Therefore, it's possible for non-sexist to commit a sexist act. So one cannot conclude that Harlan is a sexist just because he committed a sexist act.

I don't. I conclude he's sexist (mildly so, as I said) because of his "it was just in fun!" non-apology.

Seems like both sexes would have the same handicap.

They don't, because society doesn't treat both sexes equally to start with.

Or Heaven forbid grope one who actually enjoys it. Because women should never be allowed to enjoy the touch of an evil man.

I feel sorry for your daughters. And with that, I think we're done here.

I feel sorry for them too, because I don't have any way to transfer to them the judgment skills of "how to tell who's a creep and who's just touchy and friendly, but will certainly back off if you are uncomfortable."

I'm not against groping, or fun, or random strangers at conventions falling into bed together. Not even against the notion of my daughters being some of those random strangers (although I hope to gods that takes several years; my eldest is 13). I'm against the notion that it's okay to grope people when they don't like it. Even when it was "just a joke."

[Renaldo]

Originally Posted by sirbruce

Blah blah blah blah blah...

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Blah blah blah blah blah...

Okay, seriously. Can both of you and anyone else wishing to discuss sexism, groping, and anything else that's got absolutely nothing to do with the Fictionwise sale please take this to PM's or email? This is a thread about a science fiction sale at Fictionwise, and some of us are actually trying to use it as such. I think most of us would really appreciate it.

[Renaldo]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Aethereal Trilogy Megabook by Christopher W. Wilcox, Sr.
And Then the Town Took Off by Richard Wilson
Time Enough at Last: Stories that Inspired Classic Episode by Jean Marie Stine
All for Naught by John E. Stith
Philip K. Dick High by David Bischoff
Witness Protection by Atk. Butterfly
The Old Man From the Stars by Glenn Devlin

Thanks, I'll check those out. And please, anyone else toss out some reccomendations for me too, eh?

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I renewed my subscription to Analog - $19.62 vs $43.99 cover.

How do the subscriptions work on FW? I'm thinking about getting one for Asimov's. Do they just email you when the new one's out and you can go download it, or is there more to it?

[mazzeltjes]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

Okay, seriously. Can both of you and anyone else wishing to discuss sexism, groping, and anything else that's got absolutely nothing to do with the Fictionwise sale please take this to PM's or email? This is a thread about a science fiction sale at Fictionwise, and some of us are actually trying to use it as such. I think most of us would really appreciate it.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

Okay, seriously. Can both of you and anyone else wishing to discuss sexism, groping, and anything else that's got absolutely nothing to do with the Fictionwise sale please take this to PM's or email? This is a thread about a science fiction sale at Fictionwise, and some of us are actually trying to use it as such. I think most of us would really appreciate it.

Are you only interested in current authors or are you also interested in older SF? I noticed that Harry Harrison's Deathworld is now available on fictionwise. Now might be the time to backfill some Robert Silverberg works...

[ficbot]

Renaldo, I can't yet vouch for the quality of any of those. They just looked interesting and were dirt-cheap. I am only buying multiformat now that I have the Sony reader. I am actually tempted to get a magazine sub too. I am not sure I will like a sci-fi magazine but a whole year of issues for $20 is pretty good and I have a Paypal balance.