Can free e-books be pirated?

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Can you find a definition in a recognised dictionary where Bad, Ill, Sick & Ridiculous all mean good?
Just because it isn't in the dictionary doesn't mean it can't be used.

Well, "sick" actually has a definition that is positive...

[arjaybe]

Once you "enshrine" the concept of property, you're on the road to increasingly extreme forms of it. Making property sacrosanct sets the stage for accepting almost anything in its defence. All manner of abuse will be accepted because the victim doesn't have the proper respect for property. This encourages calling people "pirates." This permits heinous act of violence against people in the name of property. It creates a situation where the holders of the most property can make the laws to protect their privilege, and make the rest of us like it.

Under these conditions, yes it is possible for a "free" book to be "pirated."

[ApK]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Once you "enshrine" the concept of property, you're on the road to increasingly extreme forms of it. Making property sacrosanct sets the stage for accepting almost anything in its defence. All manner of abuse will be accepted because the victim doesn't have the proper respect for property. This encourages calling people "pirates." This permits heinous act of violence against people in the name of property. It creates a situation where the holders of the most property can make the laws to protect their privilege, and make the rest of us like it.

Under these conditions, yes it is possible for a "free" book to be "pirated."

More word games so people can rationalize selfishly doing stuff they have no right to do, and put their own whims above the interests of others or any common good.

The relevant meaning of "enshrine" here is:

preserve (a right, tradition, or idea) in a form that ensures it will be protected and respected.
"the right of all workers to strike was enshrined in the new constitution"
synonyms: preserve, entrench, set down, lay down, set in stone, embody, incorporate, contain, include, treasure, immortalize, cherish
"the following rights should be enshrined in the treaty"

and it is how we function as a civilized society, rather than just anarchistic animals.

Somewhere mixed in your statement is the idea that property rights are bad, or at least unimportant, and people shouldn't defend property. Most people disagree with you. I disagree with you. And, while you are entitled to your opinion, keep your hands off my stuff.

Words have power and influence, sure, but it's not because we have assigned words like "enshrine" and "piracy" that I and many others feel that way. You have that part totally backwards. We assign those words BECAUSE we feel that way. Maybe instead of trying to change the words in a fit of political correctness, more folks should worry about getting the message, in a bit of actual correctness.

Social and political abuses and excesses are NOT solved by renaming things. And the argument to do so is a distraction at best, and a harmful, misleading smokescreen at worst.

You seem to imply that calling something "piracy" by analogy directly leads to people storming in with muskets and cutlasses and slaughtering people.
Well, that's nonsense, but hopefully it means you'll understand when I say that infringing on Intellectual Property rights, and treating it like there is nothing wrong with doing it, can indeed to lead to acceptance of infringement of other rights, with similar rationalization and self-justification.

[Catlady]

Hasn't this thread strayed rather far from the original question? If a person finds a link to a free book on a presumably reputable, legitimate site, isn't it reasonable for that person to use the link to download the book?

Is it any different from going to Kobo, say, and trying to use an expired coupon code in the hope that the system will still accept that coupon? How come it's OK when deals are posted in the Deals thread about what are probably pricing errors and folks eagerly rush to Amazon or wherever to grab some book for pennies before the error is corrected? Why should the onus be on the end user?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Hasn't this thread strayed rather far from the original question?

It hasn't "strayed" in the sense of going off-topic. But, like every copyright thread before it, it's probably expanding into territory best reserved for the P&R section.

If a person finds a link to a free book on a presumably reputable, legitimate site, isn't it reasonable for that person to use the link to download the book?

Probably the most honest and practical answer was given on the first page:

Originally Posted by jhowell

I would get the free copy, but I would also know that I was in the wrong for doing so.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by ApK

More word games so people can rationalize selfishly doing stuff they have no right to do, and put their own whims above the interests of others or any common good.

The relevant meaning of "enshrine" here is:


and it is how we function as a civilized society, rather than just anarchistic animals.

Somewhere mixed in your statement is the idea that property rights are bad, or at least unimportant, and people shouldn't defend property. Most people disagree with you. I disagree with you. And, while you are entitled to your opinion, keep your hands off my stuff.

Words have power and influence, sure, but it's not because we have assigned words like "enshrine" and "piracy" that I and many others feel that way. You have that part totally backwards. We assign those words BECAUSE we feel that way. Maybe instead of trying to change the words in a fit of political correctness, more folks should worry about getting the message, in a bit of actual correctness.

Social and political abuses and excesses are NOT solved by renaming things. And the argument to do so is a distraction at best, and a harmful, misleading smokescreen at worst.

You seem to imply that calling something "piracy" by analogy directly leads to people storming in with muskets and cutlasses and slaughtering people.
Well, that's nonsense, but hopefully it means you'll understand when I say that infringing on Intellectual Property rights, and treating it like there is nothing wrong with doing it, can indeed to lead to acceptance of infringement of other rights, with similar rationalization and self-justification.

This heated, contemptuous and accusatory response is full of most of the assumptions I might have predicted. If I was choosing a jury, I would move to strike this candidate.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Once you "enshrine" the concept of property, you're on the road to increasingly extreme forms of it. Making property sacrosanct sets the stage for accepting almost anything in its defence. All manner of abuse will be accepted because the victim doesn't have the proper respect for property. This encourages calling people "pirates." This permits heinous act of violence against people in the name of property. It creates a situation where the holders of the most property can make the laws to protect their privilege, and make the rest of us like it.

Under these conditions, yes it is possible for a "free" book to be "pirated."

Your argument seems to assume there is no middle-ground. There are always shades of gray.

The situation the OP mentioned likely counts as piracy, though I doubt anyone is too het up about it.

I notice you wrote piracy with scare quotes. In your view, is downloading music, movies, books or what have you always a morally acceptable practice?

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Your argument seems to assume there is no middle-ground. There are always shades of gray.

The situation the OP mentioned likely counts as piracy, though I doubt anyone is too het up about it.

I notice you wrote piracy with scare quotes. In your view, is downloading music, movies, books or what have you always a morally acceptable practice?

It wasn't an argument. It was a caution about the extremes of property, the demonizing use of words like piracy being a mild example.

How is your question relevant to that?

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

It wasn't an argument. It was a caution about the extremes of property, the demonizing use of words like piracy being a mild example.

How is your question relevant to that?

I'm afraid us Brits will have to cop the blame for the term.

It's been in use for a few hundred years though, so it's a bit churlish to complain about it now.

http://copyrightsandcampaigns.blogsp...ringement.html

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

I'm afraid us Brits will have to cop the blame for the term.

It's been in use for a few hundred years though, so it's a bit churlish to complain about it now.

http://copyrightsandcampaigns.blogsp...ringement.html

I don't know that it's churlish to point out the use of a rhetorical device, no matter how long it's been in use. 350 years ago, copyright was something that came from the crown and had nothing to do with who wrote the book. Someone had the copyright, i.e. a government granted monopoly for printing, of the bible. Few books were actually covered under a copyright, thus it was quite legal to for multiple printers to print copies. Calling someone else a pirate for printing the book was a bit like calling someone a Nazi now, i.e. it was purely a rhetorical device designed to engage the emotions of the listener.

Right now, we are discussing ethics more than legality. The legality of removing DRM from an ebook in the US is uncertain. There is a conflict between the fair use doctrine of being about to make back up copies of your ebooks, and being able to format shift, and laws that make it illegal to bypass DRM. However, I think that a majority would agree that making a backup copy and format shifting an ebook that you paid for is ethical.

In the original case, i.e. downloading a free ebook via the wayback machine, when it's no longer being offered as free, I've already given my opinion of when it's ethical and when it isn't (ethical if it's not available otherwise, not ethical is you are simply trying to avoid paying for it). Ethics is one of those areas where there are lots of different opinions, and it's not always straight forward. Lots of room for reasonable disagreement.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Ethics is one of those areas where there are lots of different opinions, and it's not always straight forward. Lots of room for reasonable disagreement.

On that we can agree.

Although I think we can all agree that a grain of sand is not the same as the Sahara desert.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

How is your question relevant to that?

Honestly, I was just curious. Your quotes around 'pirated' made me think the concept wasn't valid in your opinion.

I know people that think it is perfectly legit to download things, using the "copying is not theft" argument.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Honestly, I was just curious. Your quotes around 'pirated' made me think the concept wasn't valid in your opinion.

I know people that think it is perfectly legit to download things, using the "copying is not theft" argument.

Understood. My alarm bells go off when I see the assumption that not wholeheartedly embracing the status quo indicates that someone must be a thief. BTW, I didn't use "scare quotes." I used quotation marks for the usual reason.

[Coops]

Hmmmm....
My vote is on ' it's all a bit greyish, and you did your best to get it officially.... errr...." but I did enjoy :-

Originally Posted by Katsunami

....my eye fell on a series of free e-books. (Don't worry, I've picked it up and put it back already.)

I've been reading some Terry Pratchett & the odd bit of Robert Rankin recently...

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Understood. My alarm bells go off when I see the assumption that not wholeheartedly embracing the status quo indicates that someone must be a thief...

Nah, I see shades of gray myself.

If a book (or what have you) is legally available for sale, you should purchase it. But I have a fair number of movie novelizations and old, old sci-fi anthologies that were never (and likely will never) be officially released as e-books. And I don't feel bad about it at all.