DOJ suing Apple over ebooks.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Note that, for now at least, RANDOM HOUSE gets to keep their agency model distribution unchallenged because *they* wisely distanced themselves from the conspiracy and adopted it later, independently. At a minimum, *their* lawyers knew how to avoid the *appearance* of lawbreaking.

And when prices drop, Random House will find there sales dropping and have to drop the agency pricing in order to compete.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And when prices drop, Random House will find there sales dropping and have to drop the agency pricing in order to compete.

Yet another thing that will be in dispute.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The majority doesn't care about tech issues that don't affect them. Which DRM doesn't... until they want to change platforms, or something goes wrong with their account, or there's a gap in the distribution chain.

People who bought ebooks from Amazon between 2005 and 2007 got screwed. People who bought PDFs on the pre-ADE system no longer have access to those books, unless they cracked them. And so on.

And while "most people" don't care about rereading most ebooks, especially years later, you can bet that there'd be plenty of outcry if ebooks were sold with a tag that says "you may not be able to read this in three years; do not buy with the intention of leaving it on your digital shelf until you feel like reading it because it may not work then."

When people notice DRM/formats issues is when they own say a Kindle and see Kobo's big sale on The Hunger Games Trilogy and realize they cannot buy from Kobo because of the DRM and format incompatibility. It can bite people sooner and more often then we think. all it takes is an eBook shop selling something for less then Amazon or they see eBooks sold by Amazon that are not available at other shops in ePub. There's only one perfect solution. ePub with no DRM. Then the customers can shop where they want without having to worry about DRM & format. It's then all about price.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by stonetools

You think $80 for a dinner for two is a budget buster for someone living in the Bay area?
I find that a bit much.Also, I notice you have THREE devices, two of which are the (premium priced)Sony.
My point is that since DRM is not all that much of a lock-in anymore, ( because of falling prices and increasing options) , its not going to either help or hurt Amazon and its competitors going forward. That might be controversial round these parts, but there you are.

DRM is still a lock in for most people who read eBooks. Most people do not strip DRM and/or format convert.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Had the publishers simply spaced out their moves to agency at three month intervals, there would have been no lawsuit, even though we would have ended up in the exact same place.

How silly. Agency pricing never would have happened at all if one single publisher had had to stick their neck out all by themselves for an entire quarter. Which do you suppose would have been selected as the sacrificial lamb? The only reason it was successful at all was because they joined forces. Period. And besides... we'd likely still be in the same place (DOJ involvement) if all the publishers got together and organized this three-month staggered approach to agency pricing you've mentioned. They're simply not allowed to work together in any kind of concerted effort to affect pricing industry-wide. Individual Publishing Houses are competitors... not business partners.

We never could "have ended up in the exact same place" without some form of illegal collusion. Never.

Think about it sensibly for just one second. If it would have been as simple as you make it sound, to LEGALLY bring the entire ebook industry under the agency pricing model... don't you think they would have done it that way? Or are you saying that BPHs were simply too stupid to know they were risking DOJ involvement?—that their lawyers/advisers were simply THAT incompetent? Please. They took a chance. Knowing full well that it might bite them in the ass with the DOJ—because win or lose... it was the only way for agency pricing to become the norm. It was their Hail-Mary.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Or are you saying that BPHs were simply too stupid to know they were risking DOJ involvement?—that their lawyers/advisers were simply THAT incompetent? Please. They took a chance. Knowing full well that it might bite them in the ass with the DOJ—because win or lose... it was the only way for agency pricing to become the norm. It was their Hail-Mary.

I'd hazard a guess that rather than "might bite them" they knew it would come back and bite them. But that it was worth the court cases and the potential fines and bad publicity just to buy a few years to peg back Amazon and set their stalls in order.

Graham

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Graham

I'd hazard a guess that rather than "might bite them" they knew it would come back and bite them. But that it was worth the court cases and the potential fines and bad publicity just to buy a few years to peg back Amazon and set their stalls in order.

That'd be a pretty safe guess, I think.

[TimW]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

How silly. Agency pricing never would have happened at all if one single publisher had had to stick their neck out all by themselves for an entire quarter. Which do you suppose would have been selected as the sacrificial lamb? The only reason it was successful at all was because they joined forces. Period. And besides... we'd likely still be in the same place (DOJ involvement) if all the publishers got together and organized this three-month staggered approach to agency pricing you've mentioned. They're simply not allowed to work together in any kind of concerted effort to affect pricing industry-wide. Individual Publishing Houses are competitors... not business partners.

We never could "have ended up in the exact same place" without some form of illegal collusion. Never.

Think about it sensibly for just one second. If it would have been as simple as you make it sound, to LEGALLY bring the entire ebook industry under the agency pricing model... don't you think they would have done it that way? Or are you saying that BPHs were simply too stupid to know they were risking DOJ involvement?—that their lawyers/advisers were simply THAT incompetent? Please. They took a chance. Knowing full well that it might bite them in the ass with the DOJ—because win or lose... it was the only way for agency pricing to become the norm. It was their Hail-Mary.

I agree. Taken from page 25 of the DoJ's lawsuit:

On the evening of Saturday, January 23, 2010, Apple's Cue e-mailed his boss,
Steve Jobs, and noted that Penguin USA CEO David Shanks "want[ed] an
assurance that he is 1 of 4 before signing." The following Monday morning, at
9:46 a.m., Mr. Shanks called another Publisher Defendant's CEO and the two
talked for approximately four minutes. Both Penguin and the other Publisher
Defendant signed their Apple Agency Agreements later that day.

[JSWolf]

delete post

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And when prices drop, Random House will find there sales dropping and have to drop the agency pricing in order to compete.

Only if readers buy ebooks based on publisher instead of on author/genre. So far sales occur based on author/genre, not publisher.

[abookreader]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Only if readers buy ebooks based on publisher instead of on author/genre. So far sales occur based on author/genre, not publisher.

I agree to an extent
I think that if somebody is just looking for a book to read and they glance at the top 10 of the NYT Bestseller list and see 7 priced at $9.99 and 3 priced at $14.99 - my guess is the lower priced books will sell.

I made the prediction back in 2010 that Agency pricing was never going to keep prices high - not because of the illegality of it but simply because of the absolute flood of low priced books coming online.

In my opinion that doesn't change now. I really believe that as more and more people discover they don't have to buy $15 books to find a good book, that is when the true Publishing revolution will begin.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But many customers - myself included - prefer to buy from traditional publishers because it's a reasonable assurance of reasonable quality standards (I'm sure there are exceptions to that). A traditional publisher isn't going to invest money in publishing a book unless they think it will show a profit. I'm sorry to say this but they few independently-published books I've looked at have not been up to professional standards.

Price is not a consideration in book buying for me; quality is.

I've read a number of eBooks that have errors that the print editions do not have. The publishers do not bothers to check for errors. Just look at The Lord of the Rings. It was riddled with errors left & right. Another example is Hyperion. It was riddled with OCR errors that were not bothered to be fixed.

Backlist eBooks should be proofed so errors not already in the print edition are not added to the eBook edition. The problem is that some of these errors can take you right out of the story.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rhadin

You (and other ebookers) keep making pronouncements like this regarding pricing and profitability in the publishing industry. I'm wondering -- aside from your opinion on the matter -- what factual bases you have to support these statements that are given as if they are fact. How do you know, for example, (a) what it really costs to produce an ebook and (b) that publishers want ebooks prices high enough to "maintain the paper book market"?

An eBook and a pBook cost exactly the same up to the point of layout/creation after the book is done being edited/written. They have to make the eBook in two to four formats (ePub, PDF, Mobipocket, KF8 (might be a direct conversion from the ePub and not really an issue)). After that, it's a completely different deal for the eBook vs the pBook. The pBook needs to be printed, shipped, stored, shipped again, stored again and once it goes from hardcover to paperback, it gets remaindered or returned (more shipping) and more layout, printing, shipping, storing, etc. Once the eBook is made, that's it, it's made. The server costs are getting cheaper as you divide the cost among all the eBooks stored there. Sure there are backup costs. But overall, the eBooks have a lower cost. And when you factor in the cheap crappy covers that most eBooks use, you don't pay the creator of the proper cover.

So there is no reason for an eBook to cost the same or so close to a hardcover.

[stonetools]

How silly. Agency pricing never would have happened at all if one single publisher had had to stick their neck out all by themselves for an entire quarter.

But actually that was what happened.
1.Macmillan went to Amazon by itself and said that it was hereby offering its books on an agency basis.
2. Amazon pulled Macmillan titles.
3.After 48 hours, Amazon caved.
4. 4 other BPHs went to Amazion and got Amazon to agree to terms
5. Random House stayed out for a year, but then went to agency.

I know the mythology is that all of the Agency 5 went to Amazon together and demanded that Amazon submit to the agency model, but that's not what happened

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by TimW

I agree. Taken from page 25 of the DoJ's lawsuit:

The DOJ lawsuit is the DOJ's version of what happened. Penguin, for one, disputes this.