Kindle 3 and Library Books

[vermontcathy]

Originally Posted by tm3

this is interesting -- how do you do it?

re the library books ... once the DRM is stripped they are still able to "expire" on time, correct? so by converting one is not essentially stealing a book from the library in that they can keep it forever?

How do you briefly register someone to your account to give them a book? Well... you register them to your account... and then give them the book. OK, sorry. First your friend deregisters their kindle from their account (on the settings page on the kindle). Then there are 2 ways to register it to your account - from the kindle, on the settings page, by putting in your Amazon account's username (email address) and password, or on your Manage Your Kindle web page you can type in your friend's serial number (on the back of a K2, on the settings page of a K3). Then your friend's kindle will show your archive and they can download what they want.

With regards to what happens to a library book when you mess with it to use it in a kindle, there are two ways, which could be the cause of some of the confusion here. One way make a .mobi library book work on a kindle but it will still expire. The other way breaks the DRM on ePub so you can convert it to .mobi. With this version the books never expire.

[tm3]

thanks, vermontcathy. good explanation.

[wread]

Originally Posted by DiamondDave

I don't ride horses.

-wrong is wrong when it comes to copying someone else's stuff without their permission.

Does your one act of piracy matter? No, not really. But it's the cumulative impact of hundreds of thousands of them that matter.

1) Removing DRM from a checked-out library book is not "copying".

2) This is not an act of piracy.

You guys on the "removing DRM is bad" argument are forgetting that the author has been paid, and the user of the book is not reselling it, nor letting friends borrow it, nor posting it online, etc.

DRM is only there to prevent copies from being made and distributed or resold, not to keep the original purchaser from enjoying the product the way they want.

[Barty]

Originally Posted by wread

1) Removing DRM from a checked-out library book is not "copying".

2) This is not an act of piracy.

You guys on the "removing DRM is bad" argument are forgetting that the author has been paid, and the user of the book is not reselling it, nor letting friends borrow it, nor posting it online, etc.

DRM is only there to prevent copies from being made and distributed or resold, not to keep the original purchaser from enjoying the product the way they want.

By removing the DRM, you now have a copy of the book unconnected to the copy bought by the library (not you). If it's not copying, then what do you call it?

The library bought the book with the intent of lending it to one person at a time. The publisher sold the book to the library with understanding of same. Removing the DRM violates this contract.

You can argue that what you're doing is not wrong; you just can't do it by arguing you're not really doing what you're doing.

[SteveEisenberg]

The public library ebook model is flawed for the way I read.

First of all, I tend to be reading a couple books at once. Fourteen days is often, even usually, not long enough for me. Now, when it comes to a physical library book, the initial period where I live is 21 days. And if I stay away from recent bestsellers, I am pretty much guaranteed of the ability to renew. Also, not that I use it a lot, I have the option of paying a 30 cents a day fine until I finish the book.

Combine that with the minimal selection of public library eBooks compared with what is physically in the library, and I don't see the great advantage of having access to public library encrypted eBooks.

As for the morality of decrypting, if you really play by the rules, there isn't the slightest problem. However, how many people are going to delete that eBook on the 14th day when they are 90 percent through a novel? I certainly wouldn't.

The minimal selection of library eBooks is not just an issue of how much money the library budgets for the eBooks. It also has to do with the libraries being forced to lease eBooks rather than buy them.

For library eBooks to work four things have to happen:

First, someone needs to invent book encryption that is awesomely difficult to break. Without that, publishers have to factor in illicit copying when they set the library price, and are likely to stick with the collection-building-unfriendly book leasing model.

Second, libraries need to be given the legal right to buy books at normal publicly available prices and then lend out those books to one patron at a time regardless of whether the book is physical or an eBook.

Third, there needs to be an eBook overdue fine system. At my library, fines make up a significant portion of operating revenue.

And last, yes, the Kindle needs to be able to read securely encrypted eBooks.

[wread]

Originally Posted by Barty

By removing the DRM, you now have a copy of the book unconnected to the copy bought by the library (not you). If it's not copying, then what do you call it?

If I copy something, I would have TWO of the item, right? The original, and the copy.

Removing the DRM does not create a copy, it just creates a non-DRM'd file...there still is only one "book"...basically it's like renaming a file...there is still only one file, it just has a different name.

But even if stripping the DRM did make a 2nd copy (maybe it does, I don't know, never tried it), as long as I don't keep the non-DRM file/book longer than the period my library would allow me to keep it, there is ZERO harm...and I think someone earlier in the thread said that the non-drm version of the file automatically deletes it self just like the DRM file?.

As long as I:

1) Don't distribute it.
2) Don't sell it.
3) Don't keep it past the normal library due date, then...

There is no harm. None. Zero.

Yes, technically I would have broken the law, but morally, I'm not doing anything different than a normal library check-out process.

But yes, the solution here is for Kindle to read library books AND for all the DRM stuff to be greatly improved.

[anita]

I think there is an unexplored issue here. I believe we can agree that the library is not harmed when you remove DRM as long as you "return" the book on time (delete it, if necessary). Also, the author/publisher is not harmed because it shouldn't matter to them how you read the book. And, after getting you to shell out money for their e-reader, Amazon doesn't really have a moral right to prevent you from using it for books you don't buy from them (they do allow you to download free books from Gutenberg, etc). However, I'm wondering if a fee is paid to the company that does the DRMing. If so, is it the library that pays or the e-reader manufacturer? Would Amazon have to pay this fee if they chose to allow us to read DRM'd library books on our kindles?

[chas0039]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

The public library ebook model is flawed for the way I read.

First of all, I tend to be reading a couple books at once. Fourteen days is often, even usually, not long enough for me. Now, when it comes to a physical library book, the initial period where I live is 21 days. And if I stay away from recent bestsellers, I am pretty much guaranteed of the ability to renew. Also, not that I use it a lot, I have the option of paying a 30 cents a day fine until I finish the book.

Combine that with the minimal selection of public library eBooks compared with what is physically in the library, and I don't see the great advantage of having access to public library encrypted eBooks.

As for the morality of decrypting, if you really play by the rules, there isn't the slightest problem. However, how many people are going to delete that eBook on the 14th day when they are 90 percent through a novel? I certainly wouldn't.

The minimal selection of library eBooks is not just an issue of how much money the library budgets for the eBooks. It also has to do with the libraries being forced to lease eBooks rather than buy them.

For library eBooks to work four things have to happen:

First, someone needs to invent book encryption that is awesomely difficult to break. Without that, publishers have to factor in illicit copying when they set the library price, and are likely to stick with the collection-building-unfriendly book leasing model.

Second, libraries need to be given the legal right to buy books at normal publicly available prices and then lend out those books to one patron at a time regardless of whether the book is physical or an eBook.

Third, there needs to be an eBook overdue fine system. At my library, fines make up a significant portion of operating revenue.

And last, yes, the Kindle needs to be able to read securely encrypted eBooks.

I think you are making a primarily moral and practical argument. This is not to be confused with a legal argument. A long time ago, one of the best professors I have ever had taught me to never overlap the two.

[dralans]

I'm new to kindle, eBooks, calibre. Re DRM, I get that forums here don't allow technical discussion on getting and installing stripping scripts. But I spent hours yesterday slogging thru old info, old or irrelevant scripts, murdered sites, inept explanations and still need haven't found what I need.

Can anyone refer me to a forum or site that might help me?

[wread]

Originally Posted by chas0039

I think you are making a primarily moral and practical argument. This is not to be confused with a legal argument. A long time ago, one of the best professors I have ever had taught me to never overlap the two.

Yes, I agree, they should not be confused.

But I choose to live my life by what I believe is morally right and true in my heart, which doesn't always agree with how some bureaucrat or corporation or industry wants me to behave.

Might I get in trouble for thinking that way some day?

Maybe, but at least I'll know I followed my heart, and treated my fellow man the way I would choose to be treated. In the end, that's the best a person can do.

In my mind, stripping DRM (again, I've never done it) to use a book I paid for (or checked out of the library), the way I see fit (on a different eReader for example), for my own personal use, is not morally wrong. The author/company got paid, and I got to read the book.

[OtterBooks]

As long as I:

1) Don't distribute it.
2) Don't sell it.
3) Don't keep it past the normal library due date, then...

There is no harm. None. Zero.

Honestly this seems reasonable to me from an ethical standpoint. The spirit of the drm, and the law, has been maintained. Incidentally I've never even tried stripping drm.

I think you are making a primarily moral and practical argument. This is not to be confused with a legal argument. A long time ago, one of the best professors I have ever had taught me to never overlap the two.

That professor was wrong, or at least his view is not shared by our justice system, which allows for taking into account "the spirit" of the law; otherwise we could replace judges and juries with computers.

[abookreader]

Originally Posted by dralans

I'm new to kindle, eBooks, calibre. Re DRM, I get that forums here don't allow technical discussion on getting and installing stripping scripts. But I spent hours yesterday slogging thru old info, old or irrelevant scripts, murdered sites, inept explanations and still need haven't found what I need.

Can anyone refer me to a forum or site that might help me?

Google the phrase "Apprentice Alf Blog" and pay special attention to Continuing the Dark Reverser's Work

[FF2]

You might also google darkreverser for additional blogging.

[dralans]

Originally Posted by abookreader

Google the phrase "Apprentice Alf Blog" and pay special attention to Continuing the Dark Reverser's Work

Thx abookreader, that did the trick.

[dralans]

Originally Posted by FF2

You might also google darkreverser for additional blogging.

yeah, did that yesterday. I must've missed the Apprentice Alf site yesterday.