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Old 07-13-2014, 10:41 PM   #76
GeoffR
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Originally Posted by GeoffR View Post
Also I have had a couple of unexpected page breaks once I got well into the chapter, though they were not associated with long paragraphs. This is actually the same behaviour I had in earlier firmware version with the `fix page breaks bug` patch applied.
I've started to notice a pattern to these page breaks. I suspect that if a .html file in the .epub is larger than a certain size, say about 150KB, then internally it gets broken into chunks no larger than about 150KB and each chunk rendered as if it were a seperate file. The unexplained page break might occur between chunks, as it ordinarily would between seperate files.

If that is the case then the solution for most books with excessively large .html files is to split the files at chapter headings in Calibre before sideloading, so that the page breaks occur where they naturally should between chapters. But if the book has extremely long chapters then there may be no way to avoid these breaks.
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Old 07-14-2014, 12:47 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by GeoffR View Post
I've started to notice a pattern to these page breaks. I suspect that if a .html file in the .epub is larger than a certain size, say about 150KB, then internally it gets broken into chunks no larger than about 150KB and each chunk rendered as if it were a seperate file. The unexplained page break might occur between chunks, as it ordinarily would between seperate files.

If that is the case then the solution for most books with excessively large .html files is to split the files at chapter headings in Calibre before sideloading, so that the page breaks occur where they naturally should between chapters. But if the book has extremely long chapters then there may be no way to avoid these breaks.
I can see that, but I think the file size is in the 260-300KB range. My test book is a 30 odd chapter book where I merged all the chapters into one 1.4MB file. I have just been paging through it have so far hit two of these spots. Using the calibre editor to split the file at these points gave me 263KB and 292KB.

I'll keep tapping the screen for the afternoon and see where the next one is. But, it is getting tedious as page turns are getting noticeably slower as I go through this book. Which, if I remember rightly, was what it was created to test.
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Old 07-14-2014, 12:49 AM   #78
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I don't think that is exactly what widows:2;orphans:2; means.

widows:2; means that at least two lines of the paragraph remain at the top of a page.
orphans:2 means that at least two lines of the paragraph remain at the bottom.

So if a paragraph has five lines, then widows:2;orphans:2; allows it to be split either as 2+3, 3+2. Your pictures show it being split as 2+3, which is correct.
Well, with that interpretation, the long paragraph bug is not a bug also...

(Hey, you had room for the paragraph to start, but, what the hell, I prefer starting it in the next page!!! Widows & orphans are fully respected, so no bug at all).

Maybe you are right, but I don't feel that is the spirit of that CSS formatting setting. Those widows and orphans are here in order to help the rendering looking prettier, and I don't think those huge unnecessary blank spaces are a pretty thing...

So I suppose the correct behaviour is my strict one... Nevertheless I'm no HTML/CSS expert at all, so you could be fully right and I fully wrong, even being a complete absurd standard in that case.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:16 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by arspr View Post
Well, with that interpretation, the long paragraph bug is not a bug also...

(Hey, you had room for the paragraph to start, but, what the hell, I prefer starting it in the next page!!! Widows & orphans are fully respected, so no bug at all).
That would violate the orphans setting, by not allowing the paragraph to start when at least two lines could be displayed at the end of a page and doing so would display at least two lines (with default settings) on the next page. GeoffR's example is a relatively rare instance where the paragraph is just the right size that there are two equally valid display solutions (3+2 and 2+3) and the engine must choose between them.

It is also possible to have a paragraph that is short enough and located such that there is no obvious way to simultaneously obey both the widows and orphans settings, therefore forcing one to take precedence...such as a three-line paragraph at the end of a page, W&O both set to 2, and room for two more lines on that page. Obeying W by displaying the first two lines violates O, so the only valid option is to apparently violate W by skipping those two lines and showing all three on the next page. Yes, it's ugly, but it follows the rules.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:21 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by arspr View Post
Well, with that interpretation, the long paragraph bug is not a bug also...

(Hey, you had room for the paragraph to start, but, what the hell, I prefer starting it in the next page!!! Widows & orphans are fully respected, so no bug at all).

Maybe you are right, but I don't feel that is the spirit of that CSS formatting setting. Those widows and orphans are here in order to help the rendering looking prettier, and I don't think those huge unnecessary blank spaces are a pretty thing...

So I suppose the correct behaviour is my strict one... Nevertheless I'm no HTML/CSS expert at all, so you could be fully right and I fully wrong, even being a complete absurd standard in that case.
I think your interpretation of widows and orphans is is correct. What I suspect is happening is that Kobo is being a bit pessimistic when working out the the amount of space left on a page. Having the bottom part of a line missing from the screen would probably be considered worse than a little extra whitespace.

Your pictures make it hard to tell. The exact number of lines on a page is affected by the number paragraphs and how much space is between them. I suspect these have the top and bottom margin set to zero, but I can't be sure. Because of that, you can't simply count lines.

The other problem is where does the text area finish? If you bring up the bottom menu, the line drawn shows the absolute bottom of where the book text will be drawn. Without that displayed, you can't be sure exactly how much of the text area is not used. There are plenty of times when I look at the bottom of the page an think that one more line could fit, but when I bring up the bottom menu bar and look at the space left, it is probably not enough.

With all the discussion on widows and orphans, I have never been able to come up with a good test case. The font size and the line length and text all affects this. That makes it a hard to get something that lines up to show the results desired.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:27 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
With all the discussion on widows and orphans, I have never been able to come up with a good test case. The font size and the line length and text all affects this. That makes it a hard to get something that lines up to show the results desired.
Is <br/> broken now? If not, it's very easy to control the number of lines per paragraph.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by arspr View Post
even being a complete absurd standard in that case.
I think this is that case, the widows/orphans rules are simply absurd and there is no good way to implement them. Whatever choice is made, the resulting extra white space looks worse than the original widow/orphan.
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Old 07-14-2014, 02:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
Is <br/> broken now? If not, it's very easy to control the number of lines per paragraph.
Guess what I thought of about 30 seconds after my last post? I've been constructing a test case with multiples of the following in it:

Code:
<p>Paragraph 1 - Line 1<br/>
Line 2<br/>
Line 3<br/>
Line 4</p>
With different numbers of lines per paragraph in different chapters. That way, I should be able to hit page breaks at each spot as I fiddle with the font size and page through the book.

Edit:

Attached* is the test case I created. From playing with it, the device looks to be using two for the widows and orphans. But, there is something wrong with it. It never got the orphans wrong. At no time did it leave a single line at the bottom of the screen. But, it it did put a single line on the next screen in few times.

I don't think it really proves anything. Other than the renderer isn't perfect. I'd also like to see a test without the use of br's. Not because they shouldn't be handled, but to really see how the renderer handles straight text.

Edit, again: * Well it is now.
Attached Files
File Type: epub Widow and Orphan test - davidfor.epub (5.8 KB, 148 views)
Last edited by davidfor; 07-14-2014 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 07-14-2014, 03:54 AM   #84
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Why didn't RMSDK put the first one of those last three lines at the end of the second page?
Because that would leave a single line (from the paragraph) at the end of the page, and the "orphans" setting is 2.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:28 AM   #85
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Because that would leave a single line (from the paragraph) at the end of the page, and the "orphans" setting is 2.
No, there appears to be enough space for at least one extra line at the end of the first screen. With orphans=2 and widows=2, I would have expected that there would be three lines at the end of the screen and two at the start of the next.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:36 AM   #86
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Yes. Dump the file in the .kobo folder and properly disconnect and it should start to update.
Thanks to you and others for helping with this. I've now done the upgrade and things appear just tickety-boo.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:38 AM   #87
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No, there appears to be enough space for at least one extra line at the end of the first screen. With orphans=2 and widows=2, I would have expected that there would be three lines at the end of the screen and two at the start of the next.
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking the paragraph was only 3 lines long.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:51 AM   #88
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I think this is that case, the widows/orphans rules are simply absurd and there is no good way to implement them. Whatever choice is made, the resulting extra white space looks worse than the original widow/orphan.
Does this seriously bother people that much? Am I really the only person who doesn't fret about uneven white space -- or even the infamous long-paragraph bug -- and simply enjoys my book?
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:55 AM   #89
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Does this seriously bother people that much? Am I really the only person who doesn't fret about uneven white space -- or even the infamous long-paragraph bug -- and simply enjoys my book?
Nope. I was really bothered by the mandatory header with book title, when that briefly appeared, but I'm not particularly bothered by bits and pieces of whitespace. I've got code set up to re-set the widows and orphans to 0, but I don't always use it, and I don't really notice when I have or haven't.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:20 AM   #90
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