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Old 07-16-2014, 05:57 AM   #151
Rev. Bob
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Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
well why - 0 works for me - & all I want to do is disable the feature!
Because the feature doesn't have an off switch. It's always on. It's like saying you want to disable the feature of this forum software that shows the letter "g" - there's no such thing. Further, I get where you're coming from on the "I don't wanna update all my old books, and I don't wanna change, because it works for me" - but what you need to understand is that you're relying on a bug that could get changed at any time. If nothing else, you should use correct values going forward, so if/when the handling of that invalid setting changes, at least some of your books will be right.
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:25 AM   #152
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fair points, but it not just me that needs to adjust.
I'd say that over half of my purchased books came with widows/ orphans set to 0 explicity in css.
so if that's a reasonable sample, there are millions of books out there that would stop working were the "bug" to be fixed

a value of 2 is the next most popular. I have never, in my purchasing, come across a book with explicit coded values of "1" - do you have any ?
Last edited by cybmole; 07-16-2014 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:14 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
fair points, but it not just me that needs to adjust.
I'd say that over half of my purchased books came with widows/ orphans set to 0 explicity in css.
so if that's a reasonable sample, there are millions of books out there that would stop working were the "bug" to be fixed
Welcome to the world of horrible ebook code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole
a value of 2 is the next most popular. I have never, in my purchasing, come across a book with explicit coded values of "1" - do you have any ?
2 is the default for a reason, and that reason's about as old as movable type. Commercial publishers generally don't use anything less (except in very strict cases) because having a single line of a paragraph on one page with all the rest of it on another is simply Not Done. It's one of the basic rules of printed media, and although you dislike it, that doesn't affect how the rest of the world works. (ETA: In printed media, it's usually less obvious because they'll tinker with the line spacing on that page...not much, but just enough that you don't notice the missing line.)

Go grab a random physical book - or newspaper, or magazine, whatever you like - and thumb through it. Look for paragraphs that do on paper what you want your e-reader to do. I'll give you long odds that you won't find even one, and that if you do, it's in an amateur publication or something with a low reputation for professionalism and quality.

THAT is why you don't see W&O set to 1. The value's valid, for people like you who want to "turn the feature off," but no professional outfit's going to use it as a primary setting. There are some isolated exceptions, but those usually relate to unusual layout contexts - title pages, included images, section dividers, something like that - that aren't just Normal Text. And in those cases, thanks to the aforementioned bad code, they usually set it to 0 because they don't know any better.
Last edited by Rev. Bob; 07-16-2014 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:40 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
In printed media, it's usually less obvious because they'll tinker with the line spacing on that page...not much, but just enough that you don't notice the missing line.
Actually, the main reason you don't notice in print is because they use a better quality typesetting engine (like TeX). You don't have to alter the line spacing (which is also something frowned upon) if you can slightly enlarge the word spacing in some previous paragraph causing it to take one line more than the minimum. There's no reason why similar tricks couldn't be used in ebook readers, except lack of implementation and increased processing power.
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Old 07-16-2014, 08:20 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
fair points, but it not just me that needs to adjust.
I'd say that over half of my purchased books came with widows/ orphans set to 0 explicity in css.
so if that's a reasonable sample, there are millions of books out there that would stop working were the "bug" to be fixed

a value of 2 is the next most popular. I have never, in my purchasing, come across a book with explicit coded values of "1" - do you have any ?
Really? I don't think I have ever seen widows or orphans set in any epub I have bought. It is one of the things I always need to add.
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Old 07-16-2014, 08:28 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
... but no professional outfit's going to use it as a primary setting. T.
for a value of 1- accepted-

but...

....what about all the big professional puiblishing houses who are explicitly using widows: 0; orphans: 0 then ?

I don't want the hassle of trawling through my backed up original_epub files to prove my point but they are out there - millions of them!- in your on-line book store of choice right now.
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:15 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
for a value of 1- accepted-

but...

....what about all the big professional puiblishing houses who are explicitly using widows: 0; orphans: 0 then ?

I don't want the hassle of trawling through my backed up original_epub files to prove my point but they are out there - millions of them!- in your on-line book store of choice right now.
I just checked through my family's collection of epubs. I found very few (<10%) that set widows/orphans. None of those set widows/orphans to 0.

Regards,
David
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:32 AM   #158
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"Works" and "is valid" are two different concepts. Ideally, yes, they should overlap completely...but they don't. "Valid" applies to code, and is very easy to check. Here are the specs, here's the code, see if the code adheres to the specs. If so, it's valid. Nice and simple.
As for valid, epubcheck 3.0.1 validates widows and orphans with a value of zero as valid code.
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:36 AM   #159
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Hey guys, as being the culprit of all this w&o talk I feel somehow guilty at saying this, but don't you think this is going quite off-topic?

Let's summarize:

w&o are in the specs and Kobo says they are being followed.

But ACCESS (kepubs) always works as if a value of 1 (which means "disabled") is set.

In RMSDK (epubs) w&o work but their implementation is sometimes buggy.

If you don't like what w&o do and you want to "disable" them, the correct and official way is setting them to 1. 0 is frequently used even by some publishers, and it usually works as intended, but nevertheless it is not "officialy" supported, so if I were you I'd use 1.


And now I really think we should re-focus in 3.5.0 discussion...
Last edited by arspr; 07-16-2014 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 01:21 PM   #160
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Can you imagine what I'm going to post?

Yes, you win!!! And YET another possible bug (quite strange and funny somehow BTW)

Look at the excerpt from the toc.ncx in my OCRed book:

Code:
...
      <navPoint id="u13bce920-682d-4461-8653-d71166db51eb" playOrder="50">
        <navLabel>
          <text>32</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-32.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u22f0c39a-d9b6-42c6-8cea-bebd7e83a25a" playOrder="51">
        <navLabel>
          <text>33</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-32.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
...
Yes, because of an error 32 and 33 entries are in fact pointing to the very same place: II-32.xhtml. But let's imagine it's not an error but intended because of whatever ebook design criteria...

Let's see what happens in the attached pictures (at least in ACCESS, I mean, in a side loaded kepub).

Till I reach that conflictive area nothing weird happens. I'm in Part II - Chapter 31 in both ToC and text.

But then I jump to Part III - Chapter 1, I reach it and then ToC shows that I'm in Chapter 2!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version Name: 1. 31-ToC.jpg Views: 330 Size: 542.1 KB ID: 125430   Click image for larger version Name: 2. 31-Text.jpg Views: 269 Size: 715.3 KB ID: 125431   Click image for larger version Name: 3. GoingTo 1.jpg Views: 358 Size: 534.5 KB ID: 125432   Click image for larger version Name: 4. 1 reached.jpg Views: 336 Size: 688.3 KB ID: 125433   Click image for larger version Name: 5. But I'm in 2 in ToC!!!.jpg Views: 310 Size: 537.4 KB ID: 125434  
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Old 07-16-2014, 01:55 PM   #161
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It would help to show us the entire NCX file and not just part of it.
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Old 07-16-2014, 02:17 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
It would help to show us the entire NCX file and not just part of it.
Voilà:

Code:
<?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8'?>
<ncx xmlns="http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/ncx/" version="2005-1" xml:lang="en">
  <head>
    <meta content="a4f6ed9d-6df5-423b-b13d-0ccd66aef438" name="dtb:uid"/>
    <meta content="3" name="dtb:depth"/>
    <meta content="calibre (1.40.0)" name="dtb:generator"/>
    <meta content="0" name="dtb:totalPageCount"/>
    <meta content="0" name="dtb:maxPageNumber"/>
  </head>
  <docTitle>
    <text>The Sot-Weed Factor</text>
  </docTitle>
  <navMap>
    <navPoint id="uae45488e-1e22-46b7-bbde-a461cfd8fa7f" playOrder="1">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Cover</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/Cover.xhtml"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="uac2313ca-b66e-471b-966e-4a7b06aefb04" playOrder="2">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Title</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/Title.xhtml"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="u82fcb3e5-7d08-471b-9f70-f872550501f3" playOrder="3">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Back Cover</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/BackCover.xhtml"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="u44dadd2c-2a23-4de5-bb30-ebd54085f091" playOrder="4">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Foreword to the Second Edition</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/Foreword.xhtml"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="udff55c24-b8a3-4dc6-93df-a1edac0c7ddc" playOrder="5">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Contents</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/Contents.xhtml"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="uc284e3c8-652e-4fc4-9269-9fd04310cdb4" playOrder="6">
      <navLabel>
        <text>PART I: THE MOMENTOUS WAGER</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/I.xhtml"/>
      <navPoint id="uf84b6f72-d7f0-40b5-91f8-c0530c4b3cd7" playOrder="7">
        <navLabel>
          <text>1</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-01.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u7ccc1c4a-0b06-4c81-897c-ac94d41e0d3c" playOrder="8">
        <navLabel>
          <text>2</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-02.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u1ecc319a-f00a-451b-b76d-6b5c12e9972d" playOrder="9">
        <navLabel>
          <text>3</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-03.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u96439e80-085e-4dff-85d9-19f722b1f005" playOrder="10">
        <navLabel>
          <text>4</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-04.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ucc26e770-7292-4042-820e-faf1c89d928a" playOrder="11">
        <navLabel>
          <text>5</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-05.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ubbb3375c-7a51-4a13-be8a-d0dd3c5f5178" playOrder="12">
        <navLabel>
          <text>6</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-06.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ufc923357-74c3-4cba-b1a4-a8ffa6d51e4d" playOrder="13">
        <navLabel>
          <text>7</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-07.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u103a6928-4dd3-4328-906d-e4a767fdb990" playOrder="14">
        <navLabel>
          <text>8</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-08.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ue97ab73a-0745-4631-b091-d3727f5af3a4" playOrder="15">
        <navLabel>
          <text>9</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-09.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u982a0fa0-04da-47c8-b033-44ee54375d5c" playOrder="16">
        <navLabel>
          <text>10</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-10.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ua1d2b896-4b9b-4193-be94-0fb0adb81d73" playOrder="17">
        <navLabel>
          <text>11</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/I-11.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="uee774036-7f7a-4839-bbf3-16fa4ceecbf4" playOrder="18">
      <navLabel>
        <text>PART II: GOING TO MALDEN</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/II.xhtml"/>
      <navPoint id="u1f23f18a-ad63-4d8f-9ed7-0efb5bceaf8b" playOrder="19">
        <navLabel>
          <text>1</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-01.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u44361399-d847-4ebb-8ebc-e09067118312" playOrder="20">
        <navLabel>
          <text>2</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-02.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u714f2f7a-fb5d-4a56-946a-687c794c0ca0" playOrder="21">
        <navLabel>
          <text>3</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-03.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u3c265c66-23a3-44b0-9df4-6b59c00c3d41" playOrder="22">
        <navLabel>
          <text>4</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-04.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ua9be74c8-336c-4304-ad0b-86e30135406a" playOrder="23">
        <navLabel>
          <text>5</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-05.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ub382499b-2b9b-4a16-9d89-14b3f0b4d1a4" playOrder="24">
        <navLabel>
          <text>6</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-06.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u5e7185ac-feba-4cdb-a029-0ae3e03c6a21" playOrder="25">
        <navLabel>
          <text>7</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-07.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u4c914fcd-d2cc-4983-99d2-844d57e55a6b" playOrder="26">
        <navLabel>
          <text>8</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-08.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ud5b63b30-42dc-43d8-bfd6-23f839582781" playOrder="27">
        <navLabel>
          <text>9</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-09.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="ue2848e67-37ce-403d-8315-1f47e062da59" playOrder="28">
        <navLabel>
          <text>10</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-10.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
      <navPoint id="u6d88a790-2ec0-41e0-be5c-f8bdd55540c9" playOrder="29">
        <navLabel>
          <text>11</text>
        </navLabel>
        <content src="Text/II-11.xhtml"/>
      </navPoint>
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Old 07-16-2014, 02:57 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
....what about all the big professional puiblishing houses who are explicitly using widows: 0; orphans: 0 then ?
As I said, sloppy code that ought to be fixed. (See also all the ebooks that set Regular Text to "small" or somewhere around 90% when it should be "medium" or 100%. There's no excuse for that, and it's far more common than weird W&O values.) That said, I'll defer to DNSB's survey; this does not seem to be anywhere close to as common as you claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
As for valid, epubcheck 3.0.1 validates widows and orphans with a value of zero as valid code.
Then epubcheck is either not looking at CSS or has a bug in that respect. I suspect it is the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arspr View Post
Let's summarize:

If you don't like what w&o do and you want to "disable" them, the correct and official way is setting them to 1. 0 is frequently used even by some publishers, and it usually works as intended, but nevertheless it is not "officialy" supported, so if I were you I'd use 1.
Spot on.
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Old 07-16-2014, 03:53 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arspr View Post

Yes, because of an error 32 and 33 entries are in fact pointing to the very same place: II-32.xhtml. But let's imagine it's not an error but intended because of whatever ebook design criteria...

Let's see what happens in the attached pictures (at least in ACCESS, I mean, in a side loaded kepub).

Till I reach that conflictive area nothing weird happens. I'm in Part II - Chapter 31 in both ToC and text.

But then I jump to Part III - Chapter 1, I reach it and then ToC shows that I'm in Chapter 2!!!
I was so focused on the sequence of photographs I forgot to describe the most important aspect of the possible bug...

As you can see in the photos, the worst thing that happens is that the first repeated entry (32) is not shown in the ToC!!!
Last edited by arspr; 07-16-2014 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:05 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arspr View Post
I was so focused on the sequence of photographs I forgot to describe the most important aspect of the possible bug...

As you can see in the photos, the worst thing that happens is that the first repeated entry (32) is not shown in the ToC!!!
I missed that. So, what is happening is that the ToC for the duplicated target is excluded from the ToC list and then the tick appears next to the entry that is one further down than it should.

Does selecting the entries after the missing one take you to the correct place?

It looks like a kepub. Is it sideloaded? If so, what happens with the epub?
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