Page Numbers in electronix text formats

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by jgray

I tried your experiment. It takes me to the same page number as the one I found by manually paging. For some reason, the Alt-G keyboard shortcut for "goto page" didn't work for me, but clicking on a particular spot on the scrollbar at the bottom of MS Reader took me to the same page number every time. It looks like Microsoft got this feature right.

Thanks for doing that experiment - that's good to know!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sony does page numbers with BBeB. But to do so eBook Library does the pagination when it put the eBook on the reade ror if not, the reader will do it. But once done, you have valid working page number that do mean something.

To be honest, I think that's really the only way to do it.

Mobi COULDN'T do pagination in their PC client (the Windows Mobi Reader) because it doesn't "know" what font the Gen3 is going to use to display the book. Remember that on the Gen3 you can load any TrueType/OpenType font you wish onto the machine, and view any book in any font. On the Sony, the fonts are "fixed" and there are only three sizes, so the desktop software can take over the hard work of pagination.

[JSWolf]

But, if you switch font and/or size, then the Gen3 could repaginte based on that and give you proper page numbers.

[HarryT]

Yes, it could. Personally, as I've said before, I don't think it's worth doing.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But, if you switch font and/or size, then the Gen3 could repaginte based on that and give you proper page numbers.

But it is only a 200 MHz processor and it would take considerable resources to do this in the background. Basically every page would have to be displayed in a buffer simultaneous to your viewing to emulate what MS Reader does and in a device where the idea is that the CPU is almost off to save battery power I suspect you wouldn't like the battery consumption it would take nor the main memory resources. It simply isn't designed for this kind of computing task.

Dale

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

But it is only a 200 MHz processor and it would take considerable resources to do this in the background. Basically every page would have to be displayed in a buffer simultaneous to your viewing to emulate what MS Reader does and in a device where the idea is that the CPU is almost off to save battery power I suspect you wouldn't like the battery consumption it would take nor the main memory resources. It simply isn't designed for this kind of computing task.

Dale

It certainly COULD be done - the Sony Reader does it, for example, if you load a book directly onto the device via its USB drive, rather than go via the desktop software. It doesn't attempt to do it as a background task, though; it simply goes at it "flat out" when you first open the book, or select a new font size, displaying a "busy" cursor while it does so. It's not too bad - takes about 20s for an average novel, 1 min for a real "blockbuster" like "War and Peace".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

But it is only a 200 MHz processor and it would take considerable resources to do this in the background. Basically every page would have to be displayed in a buffer simultaneous to your viewing to emulate what MS Reader does...

You only have to emulate the size of characters like TeX does to compute page breaks. You do not have to render the full page.

[bob_ninja]

Dale's point about a limited processing capacity is what I was trying to demonstrate as a general observation - the current eReader devices have limited computing resources relative to the needs of a "proper" pagination, so some compromises have to be made.

Sony may limit font type/size choices and compute pages for them. Cybook took a different route of more font type/size flexibility but less accurate pages.

Thus the conclusion is that better pagination has to wait for more powerful processors combined with batteries that can support them. I think Cybook is in a good shape as its battery is more than sufficient so they could certainly put Cybook CPU to work more with a the next software update. The suggestion of a background pagination based on the current settings and storing results in its data files associated with an eBook would work well. We only use a small number of font type/size combos for any particular book. Based on my current experience regarding battery life, I would not loose anything if CPU did more pagination work and used more power. I still haven't managed to drop below 50% so the current battery has more then enough juice.

Again, the bottom line is we'll need some patience and understanding as this discussion has demonstrated that while on the surface it seems simple, actually it rather difficult problem to solve.

BTW nice ideas/info being posted, great stuff

[hapax legomenon]

Page numbers are needed with book clubs and classrooms. ("Now class, turn to page 77"). Personally I don't need a print page equivalent. A percent or even a word number would be sufficient.

[jgray]

Originally Posted by bob_ninja

Dale's point about a limited processing capacity is what I was trying to demonstrate as a general observation - the current eReader devices have limited computing resources relative to the needs of a "proper" pagination, so some compromises have to be made.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what is needed, but as I said before, MS Reader has been doing pagination for different font sizes for years. If they can do it on a PDA with an older, slower processor than those in use today, then why is it so difficult on the Sony or Cybook?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by jgray

Perhaps I'm not understanding what is needed, but as I said before, MS Reader has been doing pagination for different font sizes for years. If they can do it on a PDA with an older, slower processor than those in use today, then why is it so difficult on the Sony or Cybook?

Every PDA I have seen has a processor about twice as fast and sometimes 3 times as fast as the one on eBook Readers.

Dale

[moz]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Every PDA I have seen has a processor about twice as fast and sometimes 3 times as fast as the one on eBook Readers.

I'm ok with slow pagination and random page numbers and would not want to trade that for a 5-10 hour battery life from a 2x or 3x bigger battery.

My desktop PC has a processor 1000x as fast, and it gets battery life not too far off the average PDA too. Of course, it's trying to do a completely different job to the PDA or liseuse, which makes the comparison a bit meaningless, but the numbers are there.

[jgray]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Every PDA I have seen has a processor about twice as fast and sometimes 3 times as fast as the one on eBook Readers.

Dale

You're talking current PDAs. I said that MS Reader has been doing this for years. Over the course of several years, I had owned three different PDA devices. Only the last one had a CPU comparable to the current Eink devices. And the original version of MS Reader was designed for PDAs that we would find laughable by today's standards.

[bob_ninja]

jgray,

How old is MS Reader? What is its current version number? Sounds it is a lot more mature than Cybook's software, so I am not surprised it works better.

Both PDA and eReaders use similar processor types. However, PDA have been moving to more capable/powerful CPUs as their software evolved to ever bigger more powerful versions. Also, they don't care much about battery life so tend to use more power. Therefore it is not surprising that MS Reader being much more mature and having more resources would do a better job.

Cybook on the other hand is using Linux where more emhpasis is placed on power management. In general, the entire design approach and expectations are that eReader spends most of its time being idle (obviously) so processing is limited to bursts of activity, like page changes and menu access. So you wouldn't necessarily spawn a bunch of background threads for pagination. At this point I am guessing too much ....

Based on the current experience of a very long battery life on a single charge it is reasonable to assumbe that Cybook CPU is not very busy. Perhaps Bookeen engineers will change their approach to pagination in the future and make more use of the CPU.

Point taken. It works in MS Reader. I will also remind you that virtually all portable computers based on Microsoft software never get a very good battery life. On the contrary, laptop batteries are famous for lasting mere few years before they no longer can hold their charge. Therefore it is perfectly valid to consider a different compromise: less features and longer battery life

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by bob_ninja

On the contrary, laptop batteries are famous for lasting mere few years before they no longer can hold their charge.

This is a limitation inherent in lithium ion battery technology. Every LiIon battery gradually loses its ability to hold a charge over the course of a few years. You can slow down the degradation depending on how you charge it, but you can't halt the process. The clock "starts ticking" on the battery's lifetime when it's initially charged, and nothing will stop it.