Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[shalym]

Originally Posted by notimp

Develop your own conscience, and do it fast.

Are you seriously trying to imply that what the developers here are doing is somehow wrong, or unethical?

Shari

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by shalym

Are you seriously trying to imply that what the developers here are doing is somehow wrong, or unethical?

Shari

I am trying to figure out what any of his posts have to do with developing or coding.
They all seem to revolve around how bad Amazon is.
Not how to fix the so-called problems.

So I am still confused. And really confused by his last post.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I am trying to figure out what any of his posts have to do with developing or coding.
They all seem to revolve around how bad Amazon is.
Not how to fix the so-called problems.

So I am still confused. And really confused by his last post.

The post below seems to be berating the developer community on this site. Did you interpret it differently?

Originally Posted by notimp

Believe me - I dont wan't to look after another bunch of developers with no specific notion what their work is actually producing in a social context. (If it stings, that the intent.)

You can find out for yourself. If you want to.

I actually was more than hesitant to get myself involved in all this (double check for yourself) - when I started, but since the old guard prevented someone else from stepping up - and It now takes someone who at last knows how to argue for something, and who can deflect character assassinations if they get thrown - it seems I have to.

Also - please don't try to string me up with sentiments I have never made. This community has to grow with the problem - "looking after it" is NOT the solution.

Develop your own conscience, and do it fast.

Shari

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by shalym

The post below seems to be berating the developer community on this site. Did you interpret it differently?



Shari

I thought it was beyond berating. I found it insulting and very demeaning.
And still have no clue what he is talking about.

[notimp]

I am not berating anyone - and I cant control how you react, when you feel, that you have been critiqued.

But yes, I am talking about the inclination that people are developing and aiding social systems they - in return, don't want to think or talk about, when it comes to "how they are used".

This by the way is a common theme today - upon developers, when they finally start to self reflect.

The reason I have mentioned it in here btw. was that I had just seen the following video production ( http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...-whistleblower ) by the british Guardian - where a somewhat well known voice speaks about the notion of -

"It's time to find a better way. I should no longer be here -"

Especially for developers. As a form of social conscience, that far too often is missing from technical debates entirely.

And hasn't developed very much within this community, If I may say that.

Also yes - this is a form of criticism.

If some of you still dont get my point - Amazon is selling its users into an ecosystem were only they (Amazon) are allowed to produce the most current eBook format. Even before we come to the DRM stage. Where better readability (hyphenation) becomes a marketable "premium feature", and structural changes within the contract to its consumers are hidden behind "new fonts for all eReaders" press statements, and come with automatic firmware updates that users usually cant disable - while this community for the most part, sees itself enabling its peers to use screensavers on these plattforms, and is talking about the new format as a "fun challenge" - but not about

- what happens, if it (the community) structurally starts to be unable to meet it - for the actual needs of users within the Amazon ecosystem.

Its the "we are just techies" excuse I am actively refuting. You do need to think about what you are enabling, prolonging, or sidelineing - by choosing not to talk about it.

Cheers

n.

My next posting probably will be about how you explain to the child in the Amazon adverts how to use a PC, a USB cable, a browser, a loginpage, calibre and a plugin to still navigate this landscape - "open and freely".

Prepare your arguments.

[Cinisajoy]

I do not need a login, a plugin or calibre to put a book on my kindle. Now yes, a PC and a cable would be handy but not necessary.
I can go from the post to the Mobileread library, grab me a book in a format compatible with my kindle.
Download it or save it to my drive.
I can then use send to my kindle or email it to my kindle.
That easy.
If I want easier, I can just take a USB cable which comes with the kindle anyway and sideload from my PC.

Oh and I still don't know what you think the developers should be doing.

I also think your ideas would be great in the kindle forum. I know a couple of posters on here that would love your posts but they do not come to the developer forum.

[notimp]

As you very well know - I am talking about Amazons new format (.kfx) they send out through auto delivery (with no option to "opt out") - if you dont just "get a free book" or a "DRM free book" in an old format from the internet.

Some of my criticism is, that this community sometimes to a fault, wan't to embrace old standards - "because they are still allowed to understand those and tinker with them".

I am talking about the future, and that for the normal Amazon user this is changing very quickly.

We are both right. But for the majority of Amazon customers your usecase is not how they get in touch with what we formally called a "Book" on Kindles. Now its a blob. We never should fully be able to understand.

It is very hard to thing about how you would educate people to buy Kindles (now also "overpricedTM"), but at all cost avoid buying books within Amazon eco system, because - we are on the verge of loosing any ability of removing the lock in (getting "your book" as supposed to your "license to look at it"). And already - Amazon itself decides when it shuts down the circumvention mechanism I described above. Or just makes it even harder.

Also - because Amazon chose to advertise with "children experiencing an open world" the exercise to make this about those very children and what they are actually paying in it return, becomes an obvious one.

Developers usually think about people of their own ilk and how they would solve or circumvent problems. But lets just use the people Amazon advertises to for a moment. How would you explain this "future" to a child?

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by notimp

As you very well know - I am talking about Amazons new format (.kfx) they send out through auto delivery (with no option to "opt out") - if you dont just "get a free book" or a "DRM free book" in an old format from the internet.

Some of my criticism is, that this community sometimes to a fault, wan't to embrace old standards - "because they are still allowed to understand those and tinker with them".

I am talking about the future, and that for the normal Amazon user this is changing very quickly.

We are both right. But for the majority of Amazon customers your usecase is not how they get in touch with what we formally called a "Book" on Kindles. Now its a blob. We never should fully be able to understand.

I really had no clue that you were talking about a very specific format.
Kindles read other formats as well.
How is it a blob? I am assuming if I do use Amazon's ecosystem and grab say The Phantom of the Opera and Geronimo Breach that Amazon will send me a readable file.
Now it may not be all fancy and stuff, and have hyphenation (whatever that does), guessing it puts in hyphens so every line is identical. But I bet I can still read it.
Are you saying other formats look like thisnote I will use dashes for spaces due to the forum correcting the spacing)
The-dog-- - j-u-m-p-e-d- - - over----- t--h--e-------mountain.
I have never seen that. Now I do know the bigger the font the bigger the spaces.

Or do you mean incremental gaps that very few people will notice?

[notimp]

The file Amazon auto delivers is meant not to be backconvertable into anything readable to anyone outside company circles. "Watchable" yes - but not "understandable" in as far as "how it works".

This is even before we talk about a DRM layer - this is its basic structure. I also referred to this principle in the past as "undoing what Gutenberg did for publishing". Removing the publics ability to produce books.

At least books that are current and look good, or have the best readability at any time.

And it is what most people will have on their Kindles within the coming year or so (auto firmware updates, auto delivery, people tending not to use PCs (or open plattforms in general) anymore).

Even if you just think about the hyphenation aspect - to get this "working" within the azw3 world - you at least need a PC, calibre, probably a USB cable (calibre server set up by the child in the advertising example?) and a plugin.

So thats the "techies" excuse of why hyphenation "still is possible" even outside the nightmare that .kfx is turning out to be. But is it practical? And my answer to that is - no, it isnt. But even if it were - it isn't a real "perspective" for future use.

Also - if calibre isn't able to fully support .kfx - in a while, people might stop using it and instead start buying more into the notion of "buying books" being "a service". The moment those users turn to Amazon to "manage their library" - something very important changes.

I leave it to you to think about the implications.

Have a nice day,

n.

edit: And if you havent done so (directed at people reading this), do me a favor and browse back a few pages to see how Amazon is advertising this ecosystem today - and to whom.

Ask yourself if you would be able to advice them to use a Kindle, but don't get the books they buy on it autodelivered to them directly - because none of us will be able to understand them. Or kfxi, kfxii and further formats - for that matter.

(Reverse engineering those formats on Kindles, or other closed systems is not very likely, nor very practical - just look at other closed ecosystems... America, wheres my "free and open" gone?)

Thanks.

[Cinisajoy]

This is even before we talk about a DRM layer - this is its basic structure. I also referred to this principle in the past as "undoing what Gutenberg did for publishing". Removing the publics ability to produce books.

What do you mean by this?
Last time I looked Gutenberg invented the printing press but the general public did not have a printing press in their house. They had to go to a printer to get the book printed.

Let's say I want to produce a book.
Step 1: Write said book either using pen/paper, a typewriter, word processor, computer or other device.
Step 2: Go to any number of websites and convert to a format or formats accepted by the website.
I do not have to go through Amazon.
Upload said format to wherever I may want to sell it.
Now if I want paper books: Print it out or take the file to a printing company or I could do print on demand.

So now please tell me how Amazon has limited my ability to produce my own books.

Now if you mean that Amazon is limiting my ability to do what I want with someone else's book, then I will give you half a point. Only because the majority of Amazon/Kobo/Nook readers do not worry about converting books. But then you really cannot reformat a paper book either.

So now please tell me what you think the developers should do.

[notimp]

What do you mean by this?
Last time I looked Gutenberg invented the printing press but the general public did not have a printing press in their house. They had to go to a printer to get the book printed.

Publishers have lost this ability under the new Amazon paradigm as well. Its actually the distributer that now has the sole ability to "create a book" ("the master copy").

The idea is, that as long as you leave this ability to be at least "somewhat known" and "distributed" - you cant inflict structural powerplays as in "this is my format - and I tell you how to...". We are talking about books for gods sake - do I really have to tell you how the "walled garden model" usually goes for those?

Also - the ability for users themselves to "edit" books is still as vital as ever - because Amazon didn't put any quality checks for formated text into the publishing workflow - and as a result they are now combating a low quality distributions segment within their publishing ecosystem. With negative labeling - btw. Ask any developer how well that usually goes..

Also I am not exactly sure if I am sad to see people actually having obtained this ability. Its one of the cornerstones of the argument we make for using Calibre, btw. Yes, manage your library - but also be able to convert those books to keep them accessible after the company seizes to support a format.

Its the cultural argument - do we manage culture, or will a company do so, that we not only pay for that privilege, but also pay for being able to access it. A private company - with ambitions to replace (I think thats fair...) public lending systems for example.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by notimp

Publishers have lost this ability under the new Amazon paradigm as well. Its actually the distributer that now has the sole ability to "create a book" ("the master copy").

The idea is, that as long as you leave this ability to be at least "somewhat known" and "distributed" - you cant inflict structural powerplays as in "this is my format - and I tell you how to...". We are talking about books for gods sake - do I really have to tell you how the "walled garden model" usually goes for those?

Also - the ability for users themselves to "edit" books is still as vital as ever - because Amazon didn't put any quality checks for formated text into the publishing workflow - an as a result they are now combating a low quality distributions segment within their publishing ecosystem. With negative labeling - btw. Ask any developer how well that usually goes..

Also I am not exactly sure if I am sad to see people actually having obtained this ability. Its one of the cornerstones of the argument we make for using Calibre, btw.

Only if I choose to sell through Amazon and even then I still own the master copy.
I really don't care what format they send it in and they use several depending on the device as long as the person buying my book can read it.
Heck if they want to put it on a stone tablet they can.
Long as my customer can read it.
Nook and Kobo do the same thing. It isn't just a plain epub.

And even at that, the only way Amazon has any control over MY book and what formats it is in is if I choose Select and go exclusively with them.

I am still not seeing the big deal.
As an author or a reader, I am not locked into Amazon. Although yes I expect them to send me a readable on my device file.

Ps: I think this discussion would fit better in Amazon Kindle forum since it concerns readers and authors.

[dickloraine]

I can understand the main direction of the criticism and I too don't like walled-gardens. But I still don't see how a distribution format (yes I still call it that) has much to do with the ability to write books. I just don't see it. I won't repeat all I said earlier on this, since I no longer expect an answer.

[Cinisajoy]

Oh duh. The light bulb finally came on.
You are saying that there is a format that is exclusively Amazon's.
Now my only question would be: is Amazon the only place to buy this book? Is this the only format Amazon sells the book in or would it be like most books there different formats for different devices?
If yes, then the author chose to put himself in a garden.
So it is up to me as a consumer to decide whether this book is worth it or not.
If no, then why the fuss?
I am guessing if I know how to convert books then I know I am not locked into one garden and can get books wherever I please.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by notimp

Publishers have lost this ability under the new Amazon paradigm as well. Its actually the distributer that now has the sole ability to "create a book" ("the master copy").

The idea is, that as long as you leave this ability to be at least "somewhat known" and "distributed" - you cant inflict structural powerplays as in "this is my format - and I tell you how to...". We are talking about books for gods sake - do I really have to tell you how the "walled garden model" usually goes for those?

Also - the ability for users themselves to "edit" books is still as vital as ever - because Amazon didn't put any quality checks for formated text into the publishing workflow - and as a result they are now combating a low quality distributions segment within their publishing ecosystem. With negative labeling - btw. Ask any developer how well that usually goes..

Also I am not exactly sure if I am sad to see people actually having obtained this ability. Its one of the cornerstones of the argument we make for using Calibre, btw. Yes, manage your library - but also be able to convert those books to keep them accessible after the company seizes to support a format.

Its the cultural argument - do we manage culture, or will a company do so, that we not only pay for that privilege, but also pay for being able to access it. A private company - with ambitions to replace (I think thats fair...) public lending systems for example.

I don't understand how Amazon delivering books in it's exclusive format is any different from Kobo delivering books in it's exclusive format or Google Play delivering books in it's exclusive format? For all of these companies, if you download directly to a device/app, you will get their own exclusive format. It's only if you download to a PC that you get the original format (epub in the case of Kobo and Google Play, or .mobi/.azw3 in the case of Amazon)

If Amazon is wrong, aren't the others just as wrong? What about the other services that serve up the books in their own exclusive formats that can only be read in their apps, and don't allow downloading at all?

Also, you understand that Amazon isn't replacing "public lending systems", right? It's only in the US that Kindle books are in libraries at all, and there are more epub books than kindle books in libraries in the US (at least there were last time I checked, could be changed now)

I just don't understand how ANY of this is inhibiting people from writing/publishing books in any way, shape, or form.

Shari