Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[HarryT]

A dedicated reader is not an "open" device, and it's not sold for the purpose of installing your own applications on any more than, say, a dedicated MP3 player is. You'd be laughed out of court.

The Windows browser issue was different in that a Windows PC does have the express purpose of the user installing their own software on it, but Microsoft were perceived to be putting their competitors at a disadvantage by bundling their own browser with the o/s.

There's no law against selling "closed" devices.

[knc1]

There is a boundary there, somewhere, that gets crossed when passing from the realm of a dedicated device for a specific purpose and a multipurpose (or potential multipurpose) device.

Perhaps I would get laughted out of court, at least as I posed my argument.
But I don't think that means there isn't a boundary that needs to become defined legally.

= = = =

I had to buy a new television this week.
Since I don't like the idea of a television that tracks what I watch anymore than I like an eBook reader that tracks what I read ...
I purchased the 'dumbest' of the non-smart televisions I could find with the other features that I wanted.

Skimming throught the manufacturer's booklet -
I find an offer for the source code of the GPL, LGPL and MPL licensed software used in the device.
Say what?
Am I going to need to find the serial port on my new television, just to see what is going on here?
Drat.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by knc1

There is a boundary there, somewhere, that gets crossed when passing from the realm of a dedicated device for a specific purpose and a multipurpose (or potential multipurpose) device.

Perhaps I would get laughted out of court, at least as I posed my argument.
But I don't think that means there isn't a boundary that needs to become defined legally.

As a non-lawyer, I would say that the boundary is crossed when the device is advertised as being able to allow the user to install applications on it, which eInk Kindles are not.

You may have more of a case were you to argue that Amazon are putting competitors at a disadvantage in pre-installing their own reading app on the Fire tablet, although I'm sure that Amazon's lawyers will have carefully considered the matter. I'm sure someone would have sued Apple (everyone likes to sue Apple ) had they been breaking any law in giving iBooks "preferential" status on the iPad.

The specific thing which put Microsoft in the wrong legally, as I understand it, is that they were considered to be exploiting an effective monopoly position. Amazon are not in a monopoly position, or anything close to it. Unless you're a monopoly, there's no law saying that you have to be nice to your competitors.

[knc1]

Originally Posted by HarryT

- - - - -
Unless you're a monopoly, there's no law saying that you have to be nice to your competitors.

I have to agree with that point.

[Cinisajoy]

Knc1,
I just keep the wifi off on my tv.
Though I use dish and I don't have a clue if they keep track.

Now I must disagree with HarryT,
I don't think you would be laughed out of court.
The reason being is I don't think a judge would see you.

[knc1]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Knc1,
I just keep the wifi off on my tv.
Though I use dish and I don't have a clue if they keep track.
- - - - -

Let me see, your in the USA . . . .
Hughes Net is the only bi-directional "dish" service.
All others are receive only (although they may be paired with an earth-based internet service connection).

Cable services - that is another matter.
I think receive-only cable systems disappeared last century.

[dickloraine]

I always wondered why browsers were special. What about the calculator app? Notepad? Or something relevant: security software like defender? In contrast to for example the iphone/ipad or amazons fire, you could install every browser you liked.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by knc1

Let me see, your in the USA . . . .
Hughes Net is the only bi-directional "dish" service.
All others are receive only (although they may be paired with an earth-based internet service connection).

Cable services - that is another matter.
I think receive-only cable systems disappeared last century.

Let me clarify,
I have Dish Network.
I thought that Hughes Net was just internet (that is all I see advertised).
As per cable haven't had it since 1992.
From 92 to 97 we had a big satellite dish.
Then we moved and couldn't bring the dish, so we bought the system for Dish Network.
But even my blu-ray player can connect to the internet.

[knc1]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Let me clarify,
I have Dish Network.
I thought that Hughes Net was just internet (that is all I see advertised).

I was just checking after my post . . . .
I thought they provided additional services, but I can't find them if they do.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

As per cable haven't had it since 1992.
From 92 to 97 we had a big satellite dish.
Then we moved and couldn't bring the dish, so we bought the system for Dish Network.
But even my blu-ray player can connect to the internet.

With the big dish systems, you could choose which satellite / provider you listened too.
With the 'mini-dish' systems, your tied to a single provider's satellite(s).
Progress, I guess.

Yup - when my Blender starts reporting to Google's database - I am going to find myself a nice dry cave to live in.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by knc1

I was just checking after my post . . . .
I thought they provided additional services, but I can't find them if they do.

With the big dish systems, you could choose which satellite / provider you listened too.
With the 'mini-dish' systems, your tied to a single provider's satellite(s).
Progress, I guess.

Yup - when my Blender starts reporting to Google's database - I am going to find myself a nice dry cave to live in.

I know I have forgotten who we went through on the big dish.
The reason we didn't keep it and have now been locked to Dish is where we moved to did not allow big dishes on the property.
I think you should be more worried about your coffee maker and your lamps.
They make both that can be programmed from your cell phone or internet.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

I always wondered why browsers were special. What about the calculator app? Notepad? Or something relevant: security software like defender? In contrast to for example the iphone/ipad or amazons fire, you could install every browser you liked.

There is no real competition over calculator software.
And no one kids themselves that Notepad is any good whatsoever.

[knc1]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

I always wondered why browsers were special.

What about the calculator app? Notepad? Or something relevant: security software like defender? In contrast to for example the iphone/ipad or amazons fire, you could install every browser you liked.

Certain functionality of the Operating System is actually dependent on some of the IE libraries.
You can't remove IE and its libraries without also disabling the OS.
It **has to be installed** for Windows to run.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

There is no real competition over calculator software.
And no one kids themselves that Notepad is any good whatsoever.

And don't most calculators do the exact same thing?
That is perform mathematical functions. Though some have more functions than others.

[elborak]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

And don't most calculators do the exact same thing?
That is perform mathematical functions. Though some have more functions than others.

You could make virtually the same statement about browsers.

It's a combination of eschwartz's & knc1's answers: the inability to uninstall IE (core operating system operation required it) and no significant commercial competitors for basic apps (calculator, notepad, etc.).

And even if there were a commercial competitor for the basic apps, they would have to decide that it's in their best interest to throw large amounts of money at a lawsuit which would they would be unlikely to win and gain little financial benefit from even if they did.

Even though Apple has been far worse in recent times than Microsoft (or Amazon) when it comes to harsh business practices against competitors, Microsoft has definitely walked a fine line in the past. Remember when their attempted acquisition of Intuit fell through in 1994? Microsoft's response; put their own Money program (competitor to Intuit's Quicken) up for free download on their web site. And canceling the deal wasn't even Intuit's decision; it was blocked by a DoJ lawsuit. Not that it mattered; Quicken (which cost) still squashed Money (which was free, at least for a time) in market share.

[Cinisajoy]

Just a quick look at the Amazon app store shows 1469 calculator apps. Excuse me 1468 calculator and one caculator.
I am not going to look at Google because I do not feel like counting. I only have 10 fingers and 10 toes.