Using "alternative" sources to obtain books you already own?

[HarleyB]

This has been a fascinating thread.
I am relatively new to ereading and own a very large collection of books that are threatening to take over my home.
I have 2 collections of darknet books on my Kobo. The first is not available as legal ebooks as the author has been quite vocal in her opposition to that format. Although I know they are not legal I have no problems in having them as I do already own hardcover and paperback copies of these books. They are physically quite large and heavy (which is why I have the paperbacks as well as the hardcovers) so I find it more convenient to read them on my Kobo.
The second collection is currently causing me some headaches. Another favourite author who's work wasn't available in Australia when I downloaded the darknet version of his books. I actually found them by accident as I was looking to purchase legal copies. Anyway I have them - exactly the same justification as previously.
But recently it changed and now ebook versions are available in Australia. I have about 18 books and if I were to purchase legal copies it would cost me about $180. I can afford that and the darknet copies aren't that fantastic with quite a few errors in them which really makes me want to get good copies.
But part of me would rather put that $180 towards new ebooks. I keep hoping they will go on special and I will see them for more like $5 or $6 per book instead of $10.
I'm telling myself that is why I still have the darknet versions and as soon as the price drops I will get legal copies......

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

I keep seeing this "hardback vs paperback", and it's just silly to me, of course I don't think you should get a free paperback after buying the hardback....but do I think you should get a free ebook for purchasing yes...it doesn't cost them ANYTHING to produce!

Actually, it does cost money to make the eBook and it costs money for the DRM used (if DRM is used). So the notion that eBooks are free for the publisher to make is completely incorrect.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by HarleyB

This has been a fascinating thread.
I am relatively new to ereading and own a very large collection of books that are threatening to take over my home.
I have 2 collections of darknet books on my Kobo. The first is not available as legal ebooks as the author has been quite vocal in her opposition to that format. Although I know they are not legal I have no problems in having them as I do already own hardcover and paperback copies of these books. They are physically quite large and heavy (which is why I have the paperbacks as well as the hardcovers) so I find it more convenient to read them on my Kobo.
The second collection is currently causing me some headaches. Another favourite author who's work wasn't available in Australia when I downloaded the darknet version of his books. I actually found them by accident as I was looking to purchase legal copies. Anyway I have them - exactly the same justification as previously.
But recently it changed and now ebook versions are available in Australia. I have about 18 books and if I were to purchase legal copies it would cost me about $180. I can afford that and the darknet copies aren't that fantastic with quite a few errors in them which really makes me want to get good copies.
But part of me would rather put that $180 towards new ebooks. I keep hoping they will go on special and I will see them for more like $5 or $6 per book instead of $10.
I'm telling myself that is why I still have the darknet versions and as soon as the price drops I will get legal copies......

And the rationalization goes on.

[mikij]

Originally Posted by HarleyB

I have about 18 books and if I were to purchase legal copies it would cost me about $180. I can afford that and the darknet copies aren't that fantastic with quite a few errors in them which really makes me want to get good copies.

Oops. I bought several ebooks from Amazon (especially the running ebooks and there are several errors in each, missing tables or graphs (I have them as p-books so I know what is missing). I could probably scan the missing tables and add them to html, then zip as ePub, but I expect that they come to my computer correctly, and this is not a case.
So, don't be surprised that darknet versions are not error-free.

[jhempel24]

Please explain how it costs to add drm to a file for each download? And besides, it's a CHOICE to DRM your files. It's not a CHOICE to pay for publication in paperback/hardback. The cost is so nominal that it's not even a competition in price.

But to answer the question about paying more if I got something for it, yes, I would gladly pay $35 for a hardcover if I got the E-Book free. I would not pay more for a paperback, but then again I've never stated that you should get a free ebook if you have the paperback.

Either way, one of the reasons I do read e-books is because of the Darknet. I've discovered new authors that I would NEVER have bought in the stores without reading first. And since reading some great books by authors that I wouldn't have bought first, I now buy those books, there are two sides to every coin. I know I'm not going to stop using it.

[ficbot]

If the book is not available in ebook, I could *maybe* see the justification. But 'the books cost $180 and I don't have the money' is a poor excuse.

Personally, I did re-buy in ebook. I tried a few 'darknet' versions and they had errors and were terrible. I would rather just pay and have the proper one. The only 'grey area' I am currently involved in is removing DRM in library books so I can format-shift them onto a Kindle. I don't keep them when I am done so I see no problems with this. I just want to read them on a Kindle instead of on something else.

Books I buy myself, I liberate as well, but since I have already paid for them, they are mine, I don't share them and I have had issues before with books becoming unreadable when I change devices, I feel I have to do this to protect my investment. If they want to argue that the book is a rental and not a sale, then they should charge rental prices. If they are charging me full paper price and calling it a sale, I own it and can do as I please for my own personal use, imho. Like I said, I legally buy them. And I don't share (my mom has her own Kobo and I buy books for her which I do not keep (she likes authors I do not enjoy) and my dad has his own Kobo but only reads classics)

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by ficbot

If the book is not available in ebook, I could *maybe* see the justification. But 'the books cost $180 and I don't have the money' is a poor excuse.

Personally, I did re-buy in ebook. I tried a few 'darknet' versions and they had errors and were terrible. I would rather just pay and have the proper one. The only 'grey area' I am currently involved in is removing DRM in library books so I can format-shift them onto a Kindle. I don't keep them when I am done so I see no problems with this. I just want to read them on a Kindle instead of on something else.

Books I buy myself, I liberate as well, but since I have already paid for them, they are mine, I don't share them and I have had issues before with books becoming unreadable when I change devices, I feel I have to do this to protect my investment. If they want to argue that the book is a rental and not a sale, then they should charge rental prices. If they are charging me full paper price and calling it a sale, I own it and can do as I please for my own personal use, imho. Like I said, I legally buy them. And I don't share (my mom has her own Kobo and I buy books for her which I do not keep (she likes authors I do not enjoy) and my dad has his own Kobo but only reads classics)

If one continues to NOT purchase *any* of the newly-commercially-available titles, I'll grant that the poster is just rationalizing. However, if the poster is doing as I do, which is to slowly, as my budget allows, replace darknet versions with commercial versions, I see nothing wrong. One may legitimately not be able to afford a 'mass purchase' but spread out over, six months say, that would break down to a much more affordable $30 investment each month.

Derek

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by delphidb96

If one continues to NOT purchase *any* of the newly-commercially-available titles, I'll grant that the poster is just rationalizing. However, if the poster is doing as I do, which is to slowly, as my budget allows, replace darknet versions with commercial versions, I see nothing wrong. One may legitimately not be able to afford a 'mass purchase' but spread out over, six months say, that would break down to a much more affordable $30 investment each month.

Derek

So why not just buy the legit versions as you can afford them and not bother with the illegally-downloaded versions at all? Don't you think that it's just a part of the "instant gratification" culture to insist on having something now rather than waiting until you can afford to buy it?

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by HarryT

So why not just buy the legit versions as you can afford them and not bother with the illegally-downloaded versions at all?

Geographic restrictions often prevent a purchaser from purchasing the ebook they want and are quite willing to spend their hard earned cash on.

Little wonder many of those dis-enfranchised turn to alternative means to get hold of the book. Particularly if the the geo restrictions are applied mid series.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

So why not just buy the legit versions as you can afford them and not bother with the illegally-downloaded versions at all? Don't you think that it's just a part of the "instant gratification" culture to insist on having something now rather than waiting until you can afford to buy it?

I believe that the specific situation was the books were _not_ available via legitimate channels when they were originally downloaded and became available at a later date. So it's not so much waiting until you can afford to buy it, but waiting to see if the books ever appear in a non darknet version.

I think that getting darknet versions of books that are not available via legal means and then replacing them when/if they do become available is a defensible position to take. I also think it's quite defensible to replace them over a period of time for budgetary reasons. It may not be legal, but then again to steal a phrase, the law is frequently an ass. I seriously doubt if _anyone_ obeys all laws.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I believe that the specific situation was the books were _not_ available via legitimate channels when they were originally downloaded and became available at a later date. So it's not so much waiting until you can afford to buy it, but waiting to see if the books ever appear in a non darknet version.

If that is the case, then yes, I agree that that is a morally defensible position. What I wouldn't be comfortable with myself would the situation where a "legit" eBook was available, but I decided to illegally download it merely because I couldn't afford to buy the legit version.

[pwalker8]

I agree with you on that. While I use to browse the darknet when it was mostly on the usenet newgroups, I only have one ebook that I downloaded. That is The complete Enchanter, which I downloaded to replace the DRM version that I purchased from peanut press. When they went belly up, I was no longer able to access it.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What I wouldn't be comfortable with myself would the situation where a "legit" eBook was available, but I decided to illegally download it merely because I couldn't afford to buy the legit version.

That's what the poster was talking about. He was saying it would be $180 and he would rather spend the $180 on other things.

[HarleyB]

Originally Posted by ficbot

That's what the poster was talking about. He was saying it would be $180 and he would rather spend the $180 on other things.

Just to repeat when I downloaded the darknet versions legal ebooks were NOT AVAILABLE in Australia. I think that many of you really don't understand how often others are frustrated by geographic restrictions.
I couldn't purchase legal copies of these books as none existed in Australia. I do already own the paper books but my preference is to read on my ereader and not carry heavy books around all day.

The Australian ebook release was only a few weeks ago but at the same time MANY other books that I also would like to buy became available - obviously some big deals were signed in publisher land.
I CAN afford the $180 to repurchase these books it just that each time I have gone shopping I have found something else I would rather spend my money on.
The quality is quite low so I expect that I will replace them with legal copies when they are again at the top of my wish list - it's just that they aren't there yet!
I'm too busy reading all the other books I have purchased in the past two weeks.

[SpiderMatt]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Do you think that buying a hardback book gives you the right to a free paperback? The argument that buying a paper book gives you the right to a free eBook completely eludes me, I'm afraid!

I did not read through this entire thread but I wanted to address this point that I have seen Harry make multiple times now. I think this is a fallacious argument. If you are referring to a published paperback here, then you're referring to the physical property of someone else. Of course a person can't just go grab a free copy if he already owns a hardback. That paper and glue and ink does not belong to him. He hasn't paid for it. However, if he owns a copy and decides to print a smaller, more pocket-sized copy for himself, that's his right.

When people purchase a CD, consumers expect that they also have ready access to MP3s of the music by way of ripping that CD. You said in another post that you don't think this is unethical but that it is considered copyright infringement in the UK. That's interesting and, I think, a sad state of affairs over there. It's not illegal in the US, though, so consumers here have a right to expect that they can make their own digital backups of what they own. It is, of course, not the onus of the publisher to use their own resources to supply such copies to consumers against their will, but consumers are allowed to use their own property and resources to that end.

In relation to the original post: while it is illegal to rely on other people's copies of the same book, I would not personally consider it unethical. As long as you don't get any text not included in your edition (like a new forward, for instance), it should not be illegal under current copyright law. The government's concern is that they have no way of regulating this. I wish the government had no way of regulating a lot of things.