Amazon - Will they become evil

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Rizla

Please stop characterizing me as scare-mongering merely because I discuss possibilities you find uncomfortable. There is nothing I am stating that is not entirely in keeping with Amazon's evident long-term strategy of a walled-garden. Ignoring the obvious potential of the new encrypted kfx format is pure denial.

And harping on the obvious potential is pure what-ifing.

Especially when the specific what-if you are what-ifing about is just as applicable whether KFX existed or not.

And especially when Amazon is conforming to it's textbook operating procedures thus far, by not getting rid of any old formats (i.e. never dropping Store support for any devices, ever), which means KFX is easily avoidable if you have an older device (or even a newer device that hasn't been updated yet).

And what-ifing about not being able to download AZW3 for USB transfer (as someone posited) is not a convincing what-if either, FWIW.


Amazon's "evident long-term strategy" is only as credible as your willingness to believe in it. It may be "evident" to you -- to others, it isn't nearly as evident.
Like I already said, the only meaningful pattern I see from Amazon is maintaining backwards compatibility and lockdown of the KindleOS, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish,, being something totally different.



tl;dr
It's not the scaremongering that bothers me, so much as the blatant, unabashed what-ifing.

Originally Posted by Rizla

I doubt many Kindle users bother or know how to convert and backup books. Closing off the ability to read media on non-Amazon devices is unlikely to hurt their sales much.The increasing shutdown of options for fonts, formatting and jail-breaking reinforces this. The Kindles are becoming increasingly simplified and closed and I would guess that the vast majority of Kindle users are not even aware of it.

Personally I see no issue with this. There are alternatives available to consumers who are uncomfortable with the direction Amazon is very clearly going in. That's the beauty of the market.

Amazon has not done anything whatsoever to stop supporting your ability to read Amazon books on non-Amazon devices.
Amazon has as their mission statement that you should be reading Kindle books and buying from the "Everything" store, no matter who you are or what your electronic devices or how frequent a customer you are.
They have put the Kindle apps on every device they could. It's just good business to do so.


They may have made roadblocks in DeDRMing and sideloading books, but in that respect I guess they have only just finally caught up to Kobo -- which has the same Virtual Books crap.


Amazon is still tremendously easy to buy and DeDRM books from.
And if worst comes to worst, we can always switch and buy books from elsewhere (while we wait for KFX to be cracked, now it is an interesting target).

Speaking of which, would you mind if I asked you to please stop conflating Kindle Store books with the Kindle ereader?

Considering that Amazon has always offered a Personal Documents service, and provides tools for converting books to Kindle format (both for end users and for authors), I find it ludicrous beyond belief to imagine Amazon will drop support for E-Ink Kindles reading MOBI/AZW3.
But I have a horrible suspicion that you may be bordering on insinuating just this.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think that level of availabilty right there is why most people just don't care about Amazon's "walled garden" (a phrase that needs to die a horrible death, IMO).

Personally I dislike "ecosystem." It's not an ecosystem. Ecosystems have little bug and creepy-crawlies, with rain and sunshine and stuff like that.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And harping on the obvious potential is pure what-ifing.

Why "harping on"? The future intention of kfx is a subject that has barely been touched on. IMO it is positive move towards protecting copyright and preventing piracy. If encryption proves successful, then hopefully other vendors will adopt the same strategy, and perhaps even the same or a similar file format.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Rizla

Why "harping on"? The future intention of kfx is a subject that has barely been touched on. IMO it is positive move towards protecting copyright and preventing piracy. If encryption proves successful, then hopefully other vendors will adopt the same strategy, and perhaps even the same or a similar file format.

Because it does absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop people from DeDRMing their books.


Also,

IMO it is positive move towards protecting copyright and preventing piracy.

Erm, huhhhhh?????????????

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Speaking of which, would you mind if I asked you to please stop conflating Kindle Store books with the Kindle ereader?

Absolutely not. Ask away.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I find it ludicrous beyond belief to imagine Amazon will drop support for E-Ink Kindles reading MOBI/AZW3.
But I have a horrible suspicion that you may be bordering on insinuating just this.

Aren't you overacting a bit? Doubtless Amazon will implement kfx for all its new devices, and will, if possible (and I don't see why not), implement the new advanced typographical features that only the kfx format offers on older devices. IMO it is a good thing that Amazon supports its older devices with software and functional updates.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And what-ifing about not being able to download AZW3 for USB transfer (as someone posited) is not a convincing what-if either, FWIW.

Unless I'm misunderstanding I see this USB option being suggested as a fallback way of being able to download an AZW3/MOBI for Alf-ing if/when K4PC starts delivering KFX-only format to the PC. Even now this is not a fallback option for me as Amazon just tells me I don't have a suitable device for USB.

Is this because I don't have an eink Kindle? All I have access to is K4PC and K4Android. To date, trying to Alf a file originally delivered directly to my Android device hasn't worked. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but as far as I can see at the moment if AZW3/MOBI doesn't get delivered to my PC via K4PC, I'll need to buy my ebooks elsewhere if I want to deDRM for backup.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Is this because I don't have an eink Kindle? All I have access to is K4PC and K4Android. To date, trying to Alf a file originally delivered directly to my Android device hasn't worked. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but as far as I can see at the moment if AZW3/MOBI doesn't get delivered to my PC via K4PC, I'll need to buy my ebooks elsewhere if I want to deDRM for backup.

Correct. You'll only get a download & transfer via USB option if you have an eInk Kindle or a Fire attached to your account.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Unless I'm misunderstanding I see this USB option being suggested as a fallback way of being able to download an AZW3/MOBI for Alf-ing if/when K4PC starts delivering KFX-only format to the PC. Even now this is not a fallback option for me as Amazon just tells me I don't have a suitable device for USB.

Is this because I don't have an eink Kindle? All I have access to is K4PC and K4Android.

Yes. Downloading for transfer via USB requires an eink kindle. You can't download for transfer to an app.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Unless I'm misunderstanding I see this USB option being suggested as a fallback way of being able to download an AZW3/MOBI for Alf-ing if/when K4PC starts delivering KFX-only format to the PC. Even now this is not a fallback option for me as Amazon just tells me I don't have a suitable device for USB.

Is this because I don't have an eink Kindle? All I have access to is K4PC and K4Android. To date, trying to Alf a file originally delivered directly to my Android device hasn't worked. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but as far as I can see at the moment if AZW3/MOBI doesn't get delivered to my PC via K4PC, I'll need to buy my ebooks elsewhere if I want to deDRM for backup.

It is being suggested as a fallback way to download an AZW3 for E-Ink Kindles running KFX-enabled firmware.


If and when P4PC stops delivering AZW3, I expect someone to put in the work and reverse-engineer KFX.
You are not the only one without a hardware Kindle device.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

If and when P4PC stops delivering AZW3, I expect someone to put in the work and reverse-engineer KFX.

Let's hope so Thanks to all for confirmation.

[darryl]

For those genuinely concerned who are not that familiar with the situation, my view and that of most others here is that there is no need for any panic. Amazon may or may not be planning to only allow downloads of kfx files at some time in the future. They have not shared their strategy with us and we simply don't know. But even if they do, this is not going to happen overnight. What you should be doing if you legally can is to use Calibre and Apprentice Alf's tools to create a drm-free backup of all of your purchased ebooks, whether you buy them from Amazon or any other Vendor.

[OldLincoln]

eschwartz... Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I finished rebuilding my library a few minutes ago. I ended up deleting about a dozen all in the 2012-2013 years and fortunately none part of a series I wanted to keep. I now have all 6730 remaining books in epub and one other. I know for a fact they are each Calibre convertible and that I consider secure.

All those deleted were definitely not in the cloud. Some I found after detective work for changed names titles and ASINs. Usually go to Google then a books site and find a link back to Amazon. One author must be totally ashamed of his early work as he changed about everything he could to hide. Found his trail from an old article where he talked about the book and then a later article where they mentioned he renamed it, then finally found it renamed again with his name changed. Got fed up with names like "George Walter Smith", "George W. Smith", "G. W. Smith", "G.W. Smith", "GW Smith" all for the same guy and of course book names changing.

As for UnDRMing, this stuff was in 2012-12 and I was new to Kindle and it was not an issue till much later and then new books were ok. I didn't go back until recently when I finally got so frustrated with K4Android that I started to go to FBReader and epub. When I went back to re-download my early books on K4PC is when I found I had an issue.

As for being defensive, been around a long time and that's a learned behavior from observation. Never been arrested, sued, profiled, etc. In this case ask why does Amazon DRM their books. Why are they changing DRM formats? Am I wrong that they have a counterfeiting (private and public) issue? It would be pretty natural for a person to question why anybody would do it. Some, like me, may simply want to use different devices (even though I have 4 Kindle devices), or like me want to protect their library from Amazon changing formats, dropping books and authors, etc. or like me reread books on a frequent basis. I prefer certain authors and when a new book becomes available in a series I reread others earlier until I'm up to speed then I read the new book.

I learned a new word "conflate" ["Speaking of which, would you mind if I asked you to please stop conflating Kindle Store books with the Kindle ereader?"] which means to fuse or bring together as "to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole." One example is: "Be careful not to conflate gossip with real news." Hmmm... pretty smart fella to use a word like that, and it may apply to this thread. I have to admit that I though we were talking about Kindle ebooks, bought from the Kindle Store - could be wrong.

However my experiences are fact and I learned from them to anticipate future possibilities. Example: That stove burned my finger, maybe the next stove will also. Or Hillary lied in the past, she may lie in the future. Amazon dropped some of my old ebooks from the cloud, they drop others in the future.

In closing..... I love Amazon! It really is my favorite on-line store, books and otherwise. I wouldn't have so many ebooks if not for them and their generous marketing. I have read some authors bashing them for their payment policies but I also started reading quite a few authors that weren't known and sold books for $.99 for a while with lots of freebies. Now they are in the $5-$12 range and I say good for you.

They have generally treated me fair and this DRM thing is the only grip I've had with them since the started. I bought a bunch of books in the mid-90s and loved their 2 day shipping which often came the next day. Course those books had paper and were quite durable.

Now that I can look back on this episode and am confident it won't repeat, at least not the same way, I'm pretty set. I hope all of figure out this stuff and maybe by the time you do I'll have figured out Windows 10, nah - not a chance!

[eschwartz]

@OldLincoln, sorry for having a little fun at your expense as it happens, I rather suspect most of us agree with you about why we DeDRM our books.
In fact, I usually assume that (DeDRM for personal use) as the default and then nitpick when someone suggests it might be assumed otherwise.


Good to hear you have your current library more or less sorted out, sorry to hear some books remained elusive though.

[Cinisajoy]

Amazon does not DRM their books. The authors or publishers do that. Amazon has many non-DRM books.
Also, you do have to redownload from the cloud for different devices. Most have 6 licenses or unlimited if they have no drm.

Oh on the books you lost, you probably didn't lose much.
As to the pricing policy, I am glad there are varying prices.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Amazon does not DRM their books. The authors or publishers do that. Amazon has many non-DRM books.

Oh on the books you lost, you probably didn't lose much.

Amazon is the one putting the DRM on. They do it because they are told to do so by the publisher. I rather have Amazon do it than to make Adobe rich for doing basically nothing.