KSO vs regular Kwifi in schools?

CarolynBG · 07-22-2011, 05:54 PM

Here's another question re the research project I'm about to start.

(For those who haven't seen my other two threads: I am about to start a very small simple research project involving sending Kindles home with students. We are funded by a small grant which is going through my university.)

We haven't bought the Kindles yet. My University has a special buying agreement with Staples, and can get the Kindle with Special offers for $100, even better than $114. (Staples does not seem to have a special university price for the regular Kindle with wifi, so that would still be $139.)

At first, when the KSO first was announced, we had decided against having the kids have ads on their Kindles, even though it would save us $400. But with an even bigger price break, well, we decided to ask the principal explicitly to see what he thinks. I haven't heard back yet.

For those of you with the KSO, how obnoxious are the ads/special offers? is it being too crassly commercial to put those in the hands of the kids (3rd-graders) just to save $625 (which can go for more books), or is it no big deal? I'm making the assumption that Amazon would never put something offensive on there. Would you want your 3rd-grader to be sent home with a KSO? Would you care? I'm torn.

And of course, if the principal says no, I won't. Just looking for more opinions if he is as ambivalent about it as I am.

Thanks,
Carolyn B-G

odiakkoh · 07-22-2011, 06:48 PM

It doesnt bother me at all, i dont notice them. Im either reading a book (where there isnt any ads) or its put away. Im honestly baffled when people complain about them.

As for the 3rd grader, you couldnt trust me with an ereader at that age. It depends on the kid though.

ucfgrad93 · 07-22-2011, 07:22 PM

Personally, I think 3rd grade is a little too young to trust them with ereaders. But as a parent, I wouldn't be too upset if you sent home the KSO with my student. I understand it is a cost saving measure.

CarolynBG · 07-22-2011, 08:26 PM

The grade level wasn't my choice, rather the fellow who's funding us.

This school *has* had success with sending iPod nanos home with Kindergarteners and first graders (admittedly, those aren't as complex as eReaders such as Kindles). I've also read of kids with cognitive disabilities who are pretty young (at least this young if not younger) doing really well with iPads loaded with special apps that help them with learning or communication.

We *will* be getting covers for these things :-)

Thanks for the feedback to both of you! I hope the principal says the same.

Carolyn

chas0039 · 07-22-2011, 08:30 PM

If it were my project, I teach school at the elementary level, I would inform the parents and get their OK. If anyone objects, get the more expensive model. This should help your cost a bit and I would bet very few parents would want you to waste money if the idea is presented correctly.

Also, it is no big deal to wipe the ads off the Kindle. Additionally, if they are not registered, it is possible that the ads won't show up. Lastly, as shipped, the Kindle has no ads. They only show up if the Kindle "phones home" with WiFi turned on the first time. If you keep WiFi off, no ads. I realize this could be a problem with third graders.

Keeping it non-registered is a good idea anyway as you probably don't want them buying books on your account. Most kids won't have an interest in the WiFi internet access as they probably have better internet at home.

The main ad that will show up is in the form of a screen saver. The other ad is a small banner at the bottom of the screen, only there when you are not reading a book.

arfarf624 · 07-23-2011, 12:26 AM

dont get the ads version, it isn't obvious when it is on, but when it is in sleep mode, the same adds get to you, no one wants to see the same cosmetics or credit card ad
If you do, you could jailbreak it to remove ads

RainingLemur · 07-23-2011, 01:01 AM

I don't think that the kids will have much of a problem with having ads on their ereaders. I honestly forget to look at the special offers on a regular basis (I usually rely on Tubemonkey's thread here) and every once in a while, I'll catch an ad that I need to take advantage of thanks to the screen savers.

At the least, MOST of the screen savers that I've seen aren't that bad.

CarolynBG · 07-23-2011, 09:54 AM

First, thanks to everyone who has given me feedback on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chas0039

If it were my project, I teach school at the elementary level, I would inform the parents and get their OK. If anyone objects, get the more expensive model. This should help your cost a bit and I would bet very few parents would want you to waste money if the idea is presented correctly.

I'd love to do this, but we're hoping to get going pretty early in the school year, which means realistically I need to buy the Kindles as soon as all the permissions from the university fall into place and I get my own procurement card, because there's a bunch of work to be done to get them ready to go. I also don't know if all the parents would understand the situation... as it is I may have to make more than a paper pitch (in both English and Spanish) but an in person pitch as some of the parents (not the children, but the parents) are illiterate -- we have a huge immigrant (yes, some undocumented, which doesn't mean anything in terms of the school district) population here; the school is actually officially bilingual though the classroom I will work with will be English-only in the teaching. I think I'm going to have to count on the principal having a good feeling for what he would accept and what his constituents (the parents) will accept.

Quote:

Also, it is no big deal to wipe the ads off the Kindle.

Huh. hadn't heard that. I haven't gotten to work with one of the newer ones with ads, or even seen one personally.

Quote:

Additionally, if they are not registered, it is possible that the ads won't show up. Lastly, as shipped, the Kindle has no ads. They only show up if the Kindle "phones home" with WiFi turned on the first time. If you keep WiFi off, no ads. I realize this could be a problem with third graders.

Keeping it non-registered is a good idea anyway as you probably don't want them buying books on your account. Most kids won't have an interest in the WiFi internet access as they probably have better internet at home.

Actually, some may have no computers at home at all.

Quote:

The main ad that will show up is in the form of a screen saver. The other ad is a small banner at the bottom of the screen, only there when you are not reading a book.

If we keep them unregistered, then how do we transfer content to them? (Can books be loaded to them if they aren't registered? that seems to be going against the terms of Amazon or the publisher though, because we could inadvertently or even on purpose use more of the licenses at one time than we should.) If this actually would be an option that would work and not contravene our own implied or explicit rules for use of the Kindle, how would I go about it?

Thanks for the input.
Carolyn

chas0039 · 07-23-2011, 10:19 AM

Keeping them unregistered should not violate any Amazon rules, as far as I can tell. The only issue you would have would have to do with DRM problems if you are using books from Amazon. If that is the case, I would register them to the same account, load all the books you want, and then de-register so the Kindle is safe for the kids (they won't be able to use your account to buy something). I am not sure about how you are doing this and what books or active content you will be buying, or the source for your books so I can't be sure of how to do this. More details will help. Also, Amazon has a maximum for the number of Kindles you can attache to a single book purchase so you might want to check this out with them. If they are in your community, Target usually has a strong community support for local schools so you could check with them to see if they have any better deals. If you use the Red Card, you get 5% off right away and they may do more. You could also set up some type of sale of the used Kindles at the end of the study to recoup costs. Also, there is a very low cost leather case on eBay ($13) let me know if you need a link.

As to the ad removal, all the ads are in a single sub-directory that can be deleted. If the Kindle WiFi is not activated, the ads will not return. This is sort of against what Amazon wants so you might not want to do this. No sense getting into trouble you don't need, especially as you are representing a school.

Since you have some time before school starts, it might not be a bad idea to get one of the Special Offer Kindles and play around with it to see what works and what doesn't.

Any more questions, please ask. I am happy to help out. I remember my graduate work and my dissertation well. Anything I can do to make it easier is no problem.

HarryT · 07-23-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chas0039

As to the ad removal, all the ads are in a single sub-directory that can be deleted. If the Kindle WiFi is not activated, the ads will not return. This is sort of against what Amazon wants so you might not want to do this.

It's not "sort of against what Amazon wants"; it's a direct violation of the Kindle's Terms of Service.

CarolynBG · 07-23-2011, 03:38 PM

Thanks for all the advice... I do appreciate all the ideas people have!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chas0039

Keeping them unregistered should not violate any Amazon rules, as far as I can tell. The only issue you would have would have to do with DRM problems if you are using books from Amazon. If that is the case, I would register them to the same account, load all the books you want, and then de-register so the Kindle is safe for the kids (they won't be able to use your account to buy something). I am not sure about how you are doing this and what books or active content you will be buying, or the source for your books so I can't be sure of how to do this. More details will help. Also, Amazon has a maximum for the number of Kindles you can attache to a single book purchase so you might want to check this out with them. If they are in your community, Target usually has a strong community support for local schools so you could check with them to see if they have any better deals. If you use the Red Card, you get 5% off right away and they may do more. You could also set up some type of sale of the used Kindles at the end of the study to recoup costs. Also, there is a very low cost leather case on eBay ($13) let me know if you need a link.

The idea behind this is that the kids take the Kindles home and (hopefully) use the Kindle for their at home own-choice reading instead of regular books during the time they have the Kindles -- so we will be constantly loading new books from the books I buy -- in another thread someone brought up the idea of deregistering the Kindles after loading them, but I think that having to re-register then de-register the Kindles every week ( or however often we swap out books) will be a lot more work than taking the credit card off of the account (which is the solution Amazon suggested) when I'm not actively buying more books. My understanding is that the default number of Kindles that can have a book at a given time is 6 (but others are unlimited, and others fewer than 6, set by publisher) so it's like having 6 copies. My understanding (also verified by the Amazon rep I spoke with) is that if someone is finished and "deletes"/"archives" the book so it is no longer on that Kindle, then another Kindle or other device on the account can then upload it.

Staples is the Store of that type with which my university has a preferred business arrangement. I have to go through the university and do what they say. I also have to use the procurement card (credit card) specifically assigned me by the University (in part to get our purchases tax-exempt). However, it is still worth looking into whether Target will work with the University (me) and give us a quantity discount on the regular Kindle. Thanks for the idea.

The Kindles will actually be property of the University (and thus the State of Colorado) and apparently I can't even give them to the school when we are done (or if I eventually can make that happen, it will be after a LOT of hassle and red tape and who knows what else -- stupid, huh? Apparently, if I understand it correctly, it's better to let the things sit around and rot than to hand them off to someone who can use them. I don't know if the University would even let us sell them, but I should think if that were to happen the granting agency would be interested in the money, even though they may not actually have a claim to it; I've never bought tangible stuff for projects before, so I don't know what is typical in getting rid of the stuff afterwards).

I've found a really nice cover right on Amazon that should total about $10, so I think I've got that covered (bad pun, sorry). :-)

Quote:

As to the ad removal, all the ads are in a single sub-directory that can be deleted. If the Kindle WiFi is not activated, the ads will not return. This is sort of against what Amazon wants so you might not want to do this. No sense getting into trouble you don't need, especially as you are representing a school.

Exactly. I really can't go doing things like jailbreaking the Kindle, doing other things that are against user agreements, etc. But if the ads really aren't annoying nor viewed as being crass commercialism, then I don't care about the ads.

Quote:

Since you have some time before school starts, it might not be a bad idea to get one of the Special Offer Kindles and play around with it to see what works and what doesn't.

Although our schools actually start here Aug 17 [so I don't have that much time]; and in the spring end in mid-May... but yes, that's a good idea, and I intend to do that so that I know what they look like personally. I can't buy quite yet (need to get the procurement card, and we have a little more bureaucracy to sift through) so I do have a little time.

Quote:

Any more questions, please ask. I am happy to help out. I remember my graduate work and my dissertation well. Anything I can do to make it easier is no problem.

Thanks. I remember those days too... adult subjects from the subject pool for my dissertation work. Much easier than working with kids or dealing with school districts, much less having to work with a university procurement card!

Thanks again,
Carolyn

lestatar · 07-23-2011, 04:16 PM

^ Ah. The bane of us all - bureaucratic red tape...

Great info and suggestion from everyone!

chas0039 · 07-23-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's not "sort of against what Amazon wants"; it's a direct violation of the Kindle's Terms of Service.

I know this.

The worst they can do is shut off your device. Then the Kindle becomes a stand alone device with no WiFi access. For some, this might be just fine. I read ereaders for years with no internet access and it was just fine. If you noticed, I suggested she not do this.

AthenaAtDelphi · 07-24-2011, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chas0039

Keeping it non-registered is a good idea (...)

Not really , because that makes using collections (much) more difficult : Menu option for "Create New Collection" is greyed out, why?

CarolynBG · 07-29-2011, 09:08 AM

A lot of stuff has happened in the last few days wrt my project. I got hit by a land mine of sorts when conferring with a librarian with tons of experience who gave me a lot of good reason to think about the Nook touch instead of the Kindle... and I am leaning heavily in that direction, after playing with the Nook the other day. Solves some of the problems I brought up in this particular thread. I do appreciate everyone's input, and once I get going, I'll put up a longer note (in the appropriate sub forum!) as to what my project is and what we're doing. I do know that as a representative of the University (and as a state employee therefore), I cannot even consider doing anything that violates user agreements or looks funny... I just want to run my little study and have things work well.

As far as the CIPA thing goes, it appears there still is a problem WITHIN the school (possibly) because apparently one can't turn off going directly to the store to browse, be it Amazon for the Kindle or B&N for the Nook, and it depends on what the school's threshold is for what they see. Is the title of a book enough to tip? the description? or would they have to actually download raunchy material. I don't know. I do know that the Nook (in contrast with the Kindle as far as I understand it) DOES have a password that specifically can bar the end user from buying, so at least I can set that and the kids can't buy books and I don't have to go through cycles of activating and deactivating my state/university procurement card (VISA card).

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who read this, and especially to those who replied with helpful answers. I really was going to go with Kindle until some point yesterday (and we might still) so it was not useless discussion (maybe someone else trying to make the decision will find it useful).

One last note: I tried to look at some Kindles with Special offers at Best Buy and Staples. They only had demo programs running, so I couldn't play with them directly. However, from what I saw (the demo DID discuss the SO), the special offers did not look very annoying at all. I could very easily see getting them for the kids, if the principal also agreed, as long as we could resolve the other internet access issues.

Thanks again
Carolyn B-G

07-22-2011, 05:54 PM	#1
CarolynBG Enthusiast Posts: 32 Karma: 21076 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Colorado Device: Nook, iPad, iPod, mac computer, various eReader apps on iPad and iPod	KSO vs regular Kwifi in schools? Here's another question re the research project I'm about to start. (For those who haven't seen my other two threads: I am about to start a very small simple research project involving sending Kindles home with students. We are funded by a small grant which is going through my university.) We haven't bought the Kindles yet. My University has a special buying agreement with Staples, and can get the Kindle with Special offers for $100, even better than $114. (Staples does not seem to have a special university price for the regular Kindle with wifi, so that would still be $139.) At first, when the KSO first was announced, we had decided against having the kids have ads on their Kindles, even though it would save us $400. But with an even bigger price break, well, we decided to ask the principal explicitly to see what he thinks. I haven't heard back yet. For those of you with the KSO, how obnoxious are the ads/special offers? is it being too crassly commercial to put those in the hands of the kids (3rd-graders) just to save $625 (which can go for more books), or is it no big deal? I'm making the assumption that Amazon would never put something offensive on there. Would you want your 3rd-grader to be sent home with a KSO? Would you care? I'm torn. And of course, if the principal says no, I won't. Just looking for more opinions if he is as ambivalent about it as I am. Thanks, Carolyn B-G

07-22-2011, 08:30 PM	#5
chas0039 Sceptic Posts: 573 Karma: 73436 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Lake Device: rooted Nooks, retired. JetBook Lite, Kindle 3, 4, Kobo Nia, Libra H2O.	If it were my project, I teach school at the elementary level, I would inform the parents and get their OK. If anyone objects, get the more expensive model. This should help your cost a bit and I would bet very few parents would want you to waste money if the idea is presented correctly. Also, it is no big deal to wipe the ads off the Kindle. Additionally, if they are not registered, it is possible that the ads won't show up. Lastly, as shipped, the Kindle has no ads. They only show up if the Kindle "phones home" with WiFi turned on the first time. If you keep WiFi off, no ads. I realize this could be a problem with third graders. Keeping it non-registered is a good idea anyway as you probably don't want them buying books on your account. Most kids won't have an interest in the WiFi internet access as they probably have better internet at home. The main ad that will show up is in the form of a screen saver. The other ad is a small banner at the bottom of the screen, only there when you are not reading a book. Last edited by chas0039; 07-22-2011 at 08:33 PM.

07-23-2011, 10:19 AM	#9
chas0039 Sceptic Posts: 573 Karma: 73436 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Lake Device: rooted Nooks, retired. JetBook Lite, Kindle 3, 4, Kobo Nia, Libra H2O.	Keeping them unregistered should not violate any Amazon rules, as far as I can tell. The only issue you would have would have to do with DRM problems if you are using books from Amazon. If that is the case, I would register them to the same account, load all the books you want, and then de-register so the Kindle is safe for the kids (they won't be able to use your account to buy something). I am not sure about how you are doing this and what books or active content you will be buying, or the source for your books so I can't be sure of how to do this. More details will help. Also, Amazon has a maximum for the number of Kindles you can attache to a single book purchase so you might want to check this out with them. If they are in your community, Target usually has a strong community support for local schools so you could check with them to see if they have any better deals. If you use the Red Card, you get 5% off right away and they may do more. You could also set up some type of sale of the used Kindles at the end of the study to recoup costs. Also, there is a very low cost leather case on eBay ($13) let me know if you need a link. As to the ad removal, all the ads are in a single sub-directory that can be deleted. If the Kindle WiFi is not activated, the ads will not return. This is sort of against what Amazon wants so you might not want to do this. No sense getting into trouble you don't need, especially as you are representing a school. Since you have some time before school starts, it might not be a bad idea to get one of the Special Offer Kindles and play around with it to see what works and what doesn't. Any more questions, please ask. I am happy to help out. I remember my graduate work and my dissertation well. Anything I can do to make it easier is no problem. Last edited by chas0039; 07-23-2011 at 10:22 AM.

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07-22-2011, 06:48 PM	#2
odiakkoh Guru Posts: 823 Karma: 1818344 Join Date: Apr 2011 Device: iPhone 5s	It doesnt bother me at all, i dont notice them. Im either reading a book (where there isnt any ads) or its put away. Im honestly baffled when people complain about them. As for the 3rd grader, you couldnt trust me with an ereader at that age. It depends on the kid though.

07-22-2011, 07:22 PM	#3
ucfgrad93 Wizard Posts: 2,370 Karma: 9026681 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Colorado Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2nd Gen	Personally, I think 3rd grade is a little too young to trust them with ereaders. But as a parent, I wouldn't be too upset if you sent home the KSO with my student. I understand it is a cost saving measure.

07-22-2011, 08:26 PM	#4
CarolynBG Enthusiast Posts: 32 Karma: 21076 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Colorado Device: Nook, iPad, iPod, mac computer, various eReader apps on iPad and iPod	The grade level wasn't my choice, rather the fellow who's funding us. This school has had success with sending iPod nanos home with Kindergarteners and first graders (admittedly, those aren't as complex as eReaders such as Kindles). I've also read of kids with cognitive disabilities who are pretty young (at least this young if not younger) doing really well with iPads loaded with special apps that help them with learning or communication. We will be getting covers for these things :-) Thanks for the feedback to both of you! I hope the principal says the same. Carolyn

07-23-2011, 12:26 AM	#6
arfarf624 Member Posts: 14 Karma: 6494 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: Kindle 3 (ads)	dont get the ads version, it isn't obvious when it is on, but when it is in sleep mode, the same adds get to you, no one wants to see the same cosmetics or credit card ad If you do, you could jailbreak it to remove ads

07-23-2011, 01:01 AM	#7
RainingLemur Spork Connoisseur Posts: 2,355 Karma: 16780603 Join Date: Mar 2011 Device: Nook Color	I don't think that the kids will have much of a problem with having ads on their ereaders. I honestly forget to look at the special offers on a regular basis (I usually rely on Tubemonkey's thread here) and every once in a while, I'll catch an ad that I need to take advantage of thanks to the screen savers. At the least, MOST of the screen savers that I've seen aren't that bad.

07-23-2011, 04:16 PM	#12
lestatar LB's lolz Mutt Minion Posts: 2,902 Karma: 5700001 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Hong Kong now but NYC forever Device: Kindle3, GalaxyTab, BB Bold9700, BB 8300, Sony Clie, Palm Vx, Palm III	^ Ah. The bane of us all - bureaucratic red tape... Great info and suggestion from everyone!

07-29-2011, 09:08 AM	#15
CarolynBG Enthusiast Posts: 32 Karma: 21076 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Colorado Device: Nook, iPad, iPod, mac computer, various eReader apps on iPad and iPod	A lot of stuff has happened in the last few days wrt my project. I got hit by a land mine of sorts when conferring with a librarian with tons of experience who gave me a lot of good reason to think about the Nook touch instead of the Kindle... and I am leaning heavily in that direction, after playing with the Nook the other day. Solves some of the problems I brought up in this particular thread. I do appreciate everyone's input, and once I get going, I'll put up a longer note (in the appropriate sub forum!) as to what my project is and what we're doing. I do know that as a representative of the University (and as a state employee therefore), I cannot even consider doing anything that violates user agreements or looks funny... I just want to run my little study and have things work well. As far as the CIPA thing goes, it appears there still is a problem WITHIN the school (possibly) because apparently one can't turn off going directly to the store to browse, be it Amazon for the Kindle or B&N for the Nook, and it depends on what the school's threshold is for what they see. Is the title of a book enough to tip? the description? or would they have to actually download raunchy material. I don't know. I do know that the Nook (in contrast with the Kindle as far as I understand it) DOES have a password that specifically can bar the end user from buying, so at least I can set that and the kids can't buy books and I don't have to go through cycles of activating and deactivating my state/university procurement card (VISA card). Anyway, thanks again to everyone who read this, and especially to those who replied with helpful answers. I really was going to go with Kindle until some point yesterday (and we might still) so it was not useless discussion (maybe someone else trying to make the decision will find it useful). One last note: I tried to look at some Kindles with Special offers at Best Buy and Staples. They only had demo programs running, so I couldn't play with them directly. However, from what I saw (the demo DID discuss the SO), the special offers did not look very annoying at all. I could very easily see getting them for the kids, if the principal also agreed, as long as we could resolve the other internet access issues. Thanks again Carolyn B-G

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