Question About Feedback Readers Policy

[Steven Lake]

Okay, you'll have to forgive me if either I or someone else has already asked this question, but I can't seem to find anything on this topic. Anyhow, what I'm looking for is to know what the general policy is on asking for feedback readers around here. What I mean by a "feedback" reader is just someone who looks over the story flow, finds plot holes, incomplete info, etc. IE, stuff readers would typically gripe about.

The things I typically see feedback readers doing is not the same things that editors would do. They go after the meat and potatoes stuff usually like spelling and grammar. Feedback readers go after what the end user will typically focus on, like "what was your favorite character?" or "what did you like/hate about the book?" and so on. Kind of a "what worked and what didn't" kinda read through from which they provide feedback on the story so you can fix those problems before the book goes to the editor.

So I'm not thinking free editor services here. More of a you get to read my book for free and I get your feedback in return. That kinda thing. You could call it a swap if you wanted. Anyhow, I don't know if that'd fall under the whole idea of "promotion" or would it just be one writer helping another. Anyhow, just trying to figure this out. Right now I ask people on Facebook for help in this area. But with that place basically going to the dogs (and cats, squirrels, bunnies, random liberals, etc), I'm not seeing a future for that kinda thing there. Hence why I wanted to see what the policy here was on doing that kinda thing.

[Cinisajoy]

Oh you are looking for a Beta reader. What genre and how long is the book?
Where can I find a sample of your writing so I will know if you are worth the time?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Okay, you'll have to forgive me if either I or someone else has already asked this question, but I can't seem to find anything on this topic. Anyhow, what I'm looking for is to know what the general policy is on asking for feedback readers around here. What I mean by a "feedback" reader is just someone who looks over the story flow, finds plot holes, incomplete info, etc. IE, stuff readers would typically gripe about.

As Cins mentioned, you're talking about Beta readers. Those don't fall out of the sky, like manna from heaven. They're cultivated, by you. You have to go out, find them, feed them (with story), keep them entertained, etc. This typically takes quite a while to develop. I know authors with 5, 6 top-selling genre fiction books and they have fewer beta readers than they have books--in other words, they have 2, maybe 3-4 beta readers.

Bear in mind that Beta readers are doing you a huge favor. A lot of authors forget this; they think that they're "giving" the Beta reader something, a free story or somesuch. Really, it's the beta that is doing the giving, because to be a good beta reader means a big investment of time and effort. After all, they don't just read the book. They read it and then typically write up a report that sets out everything that they liked, didn't, what chapters sagged, yadda.

The things I typically see feedback readers doing is not the same things that editors would do. They go after the meat and potatoes stuff usually like spelling and grammar. Feedback readers go after what the end user will typically focus on, like "what was your favorite character?" or "what did you like/hate about the book?" and so on. Kind of a "what worked and what didn't" kinda read through from which they provide feedback on the story so you can fix those problems before the book goes to the editor.

If your book is finished, you can pay to put it on Net Galley. You'll get beta readers there, but mostly, they give you rankings, and reviews--not reports.

So I'm not thinking free editor services here. More of a you get to read my book for free and I get your feedback in return.

Hmmmm. See above.

That kinda thing. You could call it a swap if you wanted. Anyhow, I don't know if that'd fall under the whole idea of "promotion" or would it just be one writer helping another.

That's something else altogether. That's a critique group. Typically, betas are not members of your critique group, and vice-versa. In this day and age, a lot of would-be authors skip writing and critique groups. That's unfortunate, because it's invaluable feedback. It's not, however, the same type of fannish feedback that you get from the usual betas.

Anyhow, just trying to figure this out. Right now I ask people on Facebook for help in this area. But with that place basically going to the dogs (and cats, squirrels, bunnies, random liberals, etc), I'm not seeing a future for that kinda thing there. Hence why I wanted to see what the policy here was on doing that kinda thing.

You can start at Critters.org. They run a longtime critique group. If you are writing genre fiction, it's a good place to start. They originally started out with SciFi, but they've branched out. You submit your work in accordance with their guidelines, and you get critiqued.

You should look around for a writer's group that would suit you. A lot of people think that it should be supportive, nurturing, and all that--but writing is a blood sport. There are some moderated forums, that are more that way than the usual (like the Writer's Bootcamp forums, run by Holly Lisle), but most critique groups are, well, critiques. Not lovefests.

Good luck.

Hitch

[Dr. Drib]

Just ask - IN A POST IN THIS FORUM - for any interested readers to PM you. And then carry on your conversation through PMs or email.

No links to anything. And no promotion, as you already know.



Don
(Moderator)

[Steven Lake]

Thanks, Dr. Drib. I kinda thought that's what it would be, but I wanted to be sure.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh you are looking for a Beta reader. What genre and how long is the book? Where can I find a sample of your writing so I will know if you are worth the time?

Hmm, never considered them that way, but I guess they would be that. The book itself is sci-fi/fantasy/adventure with a mild Christian theme. Although that's not the only one as I've got others that are pure sci-fi/fantasy. I don't write pure single genre books. Mine all tend to be fusion works when it comes to the non-fiction stuff. I only do pure genre works in the non-fiction books I write. The one I've presently got on offer for review is the first one I mentioned. It's called "The Race" and is book 1 in the "Offworld Chronicles" series. It originally started out as a single book but I've gone back and rewrote it and greatly expanded it out now into a multi-book series. As for samples, head over to my website (linked in my sig) and go into the books section. Each one has a link over to Smashwords where they're available to read for free.

Originally Posted by Hitch

As Cins mentioned, you're talking about Beta readers. Those don't fall out of the sky, like manna from heaven. They're cultivated, by you. You have to go out, find them, feed them (with story), keep them entertained, etc........[snip]

Hmm, all good advice! Thanks.

[Cinisajoy]

I may owe you a bit of an apology. My first post does sound a little harsh.

Here is the thing. You want a person to take several hours to read your book and take notes where it doesn't make sense. You get feedback to help you make more money potentially. All the reader gets is a book that might or might not be worth anything. I don't know you. I don't know your style. That was why I asked for a sample. I wanted to make sure you could actually string a sentence together. I have been burned before. (Though being asked to review for a free book can be challenging too.)

Let me give you an example of the bad.

We went too my fathers' house's sew we could set on the couch's and the to of us...

Note: The incomplete sentence. The "book" was very incomplete too.
Need I continue.

Every apostrophe and homonym was wrong.

[Cinisajoy]

I just want to add I looked at your writing. It is good but just not for me.
Sorry I can't help.

[Steven Lake]

Cinisajoy, I actually give my books away for free in most cases. I don't do this for money or profit or anything like that. I do it for the fun of it. But that doesn't mean I want to put out a book that's less than the best it can be. So even if I don't charge for them, I still like to be sure that when they're officially published they're at the top of their game. Hence the feedback readers and the editors. I realize it's the same thing that one would do if they were to charge for their work, but to me that's fine. Free or pay they should still both be the same quality.

The only time I break my "free or die" policy is either for fundraising purposes (for a charity) or if it's the print copy, and even then I only charge people what it costs me to have them printed and distributed. Otherwise I don't take a dime from my writing. Probably never will either. At one time I may have been all about the Benjamins. But after a couple years of that I realized how much it sucked all the fun out of writing. So now I just write for fun and give them away and I couldn't be happier. So in the end, having people read my books and critique them is a huge help to me and allows me to provide people with the best books possible, even if they are free. :P

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Cinisajoy, I actually give my books away for free in most cases. I don't do this for money or profit or anything like that. I do it for the fun of it. But that doesn't mean I want to put out a book that's less than the best it can be. So even if I don't charge for them, I still like to be sure that when they're officially published they're at the top of their game. Hence the feedback readers and the editors. I realize it's the same thing that one would do if they were to charge for their work, but to me that's fine. Free or pay they should still both be the same quality.

The only time I break my "free or die" policy is either for fundraising purposes (for a charity) or if it's the print copy, and even then I only charge people what it costs me to have them printed and distributed. Otherwise I don't take a dime from my writing. Probably never will either. At one time I may have been all about the Benjamins. But after a couple years of that I realized how much it sucked all the fun out of writing. So now I just write for fun and give them away and I couldn't be happier. So in the end, having people read my books and critique them is a huge help to me and allows me to provide people with the best books possible, even if they are free. :P

I love your attitude. I agree with you on quality shouldn't be dependent on price.

Though you misunderstood my use of free.
There have been a few authors that think because they gave a person a copy of their book, said person owes them several hours at their demand.

I have been offered more than one arc or free for review books.
I quickly learned to turn most down.
Yes, these people are charging for their books.

Your writing looks good. Maybe one day, I will read you but right now, not in the mood for your genre.

[Steven Lake]

Hey, thanks for the compliment and no offense taken about not liking it. Not everyone likes the kind of books I write, and I'm okay with that. I'm certainly nothing like Brandon Sanderson in that regard. (and yes, I've met him in person and my opinion is that he's pretty full of himself. but that's my 2c) :P

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Hey, thanks for the compliment and no offense taken about not liking it. Not everyone likes the kind of books I write, and I'm okay with that. I'm certainly nothing like Brandon Sanderson in that regard. (and yes, I've met him in person and my opinion is that he's pretty full of himself. but that's my 2c) :P

Now if you want to write a cookbook or an autobiography about cooking, I'm your girl this week.

[gmw]

It's not even as simple as not liking a particular kind of books. Sometimes people will like the genre or kind of story in general, but just won't like a particular voice. I'm very much that way with most genres, it's why I tend to read by author; I find someone I like and follow them.

There are some, like Terry Pratchett, where I've sometimes thought I could probably enjoy reading their shopping lists, but reality hits when you get someone like Stephen King that plunked an essay about baseball in the middle of a short story collection, and you realise that maybe you don't like their voice quite that much.

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by gmw

It's not even as simple as not liking a particular kind of books. Sometimes people will like the genre or kind of story in general, but just won't like a particular voice. I'm very much that way with most genres, it's why I tend to read by author; I find someone I like and follow them.

There are some, like Terry Pratchett, where I've sometimes thought I could probably enjoy reading their shopping lists, but reality hits when you get someone like Stephen King that plunked an essay about baseball in the middle of a short story collection, and you realise that maybe you don't like their voice quite that much.

Yeah, I can totally understand that. I think I've come across that myself. In fact, I know a few people who right really good stories that are very immersive. But the way they write is like nails on a chalk board. If you can get past that the stories are good. But most times I try to avoid those types as well. Especially the ones that use the "said she" or "said he" way of writing. Drives me nuts.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Now if you want to write a cookbook or an autobiography about cooking, I'm your girl this week.

lol. Believe it or not I used to be a chef, but gave it up as it was too stressful.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Yeah, I can totally understand that. I think I've come across that myself. In fact, I know a few people who right really good stories that are very immersive. But the way they write is like nails on a chalk board. If you can get past that the stories are good. But most times I try to avoid those types as well. Especially the ones that use the "said she" or "said he" way of writing. Drives me nuts.


lol. Believe it or not I used to be a chef, but gave it up as it was too stressful.

I can believe it. My restaurant experience is limited to dishwasher for a week. We won't discuss the restaurant owner didn't have a lunch dishwasher. Closed 2-5. Those got washed when the night dishwasher got there.

[Steven Lake]

Pfft, sounds like some of the winners I worked for. Although they had a bad habit of throwing things at you if they were mad, including knives. o_0;;