VBasic and stuff :)

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I'm very sorry to hear that. (I mean that tongue firmly in cheek )

It's been good to us. Hard as hell, and not as .. entertaining .. as life at a startup, but I can geek out to no end

Originally Posted by NatCh

I program in Lotus Notes, myself (we're supposed to be switching to "something else" -- have been "supposed to" for going on four years now -- and I wish we'd get on with it, actually. I want to go to an relational back-end with a VBasic interface, as it happens), so I have some idea what you mean, kfarmer.

Have you checked out VB9 (VB 2008, whatever they're calling the new release -- you know how MS Marketing can be with name changes...). There's some stuff there that should make your data access much more pleasant (I know, I wrote some of it).

If you want, we can take this to a different thread.

Originally Posted by NatCh

I'm sympathetic with the problem, but the fact remains that I've been trained by Windows to take status bars well salted.

As I mentioned, I've not trusted one anywhere in ages. Especially if they're used in installers/uninstallers...

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

Have you checked out VB9 (VB 2008, whatever they're calling the new release -- you know how MS Marketing can be with name changes...). There's some stuff there that should make your data access much more pleasant (I know, I wrote some of it).

Not yet, as I hinted, the "Powers That Be" haven't told us where we're going from Notes (we've been waiting four years for them to pull that particular finger out of their noses), so I haven't played much with any alternatives, I've just been "shutin' up and colorin'" with the crayons I have. It's kind of a sore point, as you might guess.

The thing that most worries me about leaving Notes is that Notes is very good at handling data access for me, and I know I'm going to have a lot to learn in that area no matter what we go to. Privately I figure we're going to end up with VBasic front and Oracle back (we've got another app in Oracle already that we want to interface with), and I'll of course buck for the newest version of VStudio I can get my little grubbies on (in the interest of doing the best work possible, of course! ), so I'm pleased to hear there are particularly good tools in that area. I think an ADO.Net class is going to be my next "career education" event. I can generally get VBscript to do what I want it to do, LotusScript is pretty similar, after all, but I'm still fairly perplexed on the data handling end, and there's only so much one can accomplish without actually handling data.

Originally Posted by kfarmer

As I mentioned, I've not trusted one anywhere in ages. Especially if they're used in installers/uninstallers...

Those are my "primary offenders" too.

[NatCh]

Just a note, I've got to bail out of here for the day, and I'm traveling tomorrow, so I'll be mostly out of touch -- please don't take it as a lack of interest!

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Just a note, I've got to bail out of here for the day, and I'm traveling tomorrow, so I'll be mostly out of touch -- please don't take it as a lack of interest!

No worries..

Look up the LINQ project. Basically, it's a unification of querying and data access across the entire stack (objects, databases, xml, ... whatever including Amazon, Flickr, ActiveDirectory, etc). Oracle support should be available "soon" ("soon" == "later this year"). This ain't your old ADO, nor is it even your old ADO.NET (though the database provider bits for LINQ are built on top of them).

If you happen to catch your local .NET User's Group meetings, there are often chances to get free software. But there's also the Express line (Visual Basic 2008 Express, etc) which are also free, if a little cut down from the full professional SKUs.

I'm currently in the middle of rewriting my website after how many years of decrepitude, but it's already apparent how much easier life has become just in the last few months for doing database and web development. I'd taken a few years off the latter, and I'm having to catch up technology-wise, myself.

[NatCh]

Should I be looking for a LINQ class rather than an ADO class? Or something else? Since my exposure to ADO is what they "get to" at the end of a 5-day VBasic training, and an ADO book that I've not been able to find since our move last summer.

The unfortunate thing is that my degree was in electronics engineering. It gave me an excellent grounding for programming logic, but not so much on computer fundamentals on things like relational databases. Since Notes is the world's only non-relational DB system, I'm in for some schoolin' there too.

I've toyed with the notion of going back for some or part of a CS degree, but so far, the logistics have been problematic.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Should I be looking for a LINQ class rather than an ADO class? Or something else? Since my exposure to ADO is what they "get to" at the end of a 5-day VBasic training, and an ADO book that I've not been able to find since our move last summer.

Okay, here's the deal:

The version of VB.NET that was just released includes LINQ. LINQ is a family of related libraries and language features that allow for .. Language Integrated Query (hence, "LINQ"). C#3 also has corresponding support, as do other langauges either released or in development.

So, if you take a class on VB9/VB.NET 2008, you'll almost certainly get an overview of VB's implementation of LINQ features: query syntax, extension methods, etc. Nearly *all* of the new features in the new releases of either VB or C# went to support LINQ in some way, though the features themselves stand on their own.

I said also that there are libraries, since the languge changes are meant to be used in conjunction with libraries that follow the LINQ pattern. .NET 3.5 is the release that contains the initial set of libraries: LINQ to Objects (queries over in-memory collections), LINQ to SQL (queries against SQL Server databases), LINQ to XML (a refined XML query and composition model). You can create your own providers by implementing the pattern, and that's what Oracle, etc are busy doing for release with LINQ to Entities, which is basically LINQ + ADO.NET + steroids.

You would do well by yourself, I think, to become familiar with LINQ in whatever langauge you choose. The concepts are pretty much language independent, as well as data store independent -- you use roughly the same code to query XML as you would an array, as you would a SQL database (or Active Directory, or Amazon, or whatever...).

That said, your employer may choose to stay with .NET 1.1 (god forbid) or .NET 2.0 (sigh), in which case LINQ isn't available, and ADO.NET would be the thing to learn. It's worth learning, anyway, since LINQ to SQL and LINQ to Entities are both based on it, and it mimics to a reasonable extent the relational model in memory, and you should have some foundation in this to appreciate what LINQ gives you, as well as to know how to cope when you have to step outside of LINQ to get something done.

ADO is something would use if you're using native VC++ (not using .NET).

So, it would depend on what you're using. The nice thing is that your employer's not going to stop you from learning any of this, and you can get all the tools for free: http://www.microsoft.com/express/

Originally Posted by NatCh

The unfortunate thing is that my degree was in electronics engineering. It gave me an excellent grounding for programming logic, but not so much on computer fundamentals on things like relational databases. Since Notes is the world's only non-relational DB system, I'm in for some schoolin' there too.

SQL is just set logic, pretty much, so I don't see why this should be a problem. You got an EE degree, which means you've done much more difficult things (IMHO) than writing database queries. ODEs, for one.

And there are other non-relational databases out there (eg, Matisse). Just maybe not as nameable.

Originally Posted by NatCh

I've toyed with the notion of going back for some or part of a CS degree, but so far, the logistics have been problematic.

My degree's in physics and astronomy, actually, and have considered going in for a Master's via an online program in Australia, but haven't had the time and money simultaneously. I've just been programming since 1982, and until a few years ago, that was a hobby.

I wouldn't worry about getting the CS degree if you've got actual work experience. Most good programmers I know taught themselves, actually.

[NatCh]

Thanks for the thorough overview.

Sounds like the thing to look for is probably an ADO class, then. That should cover the bases, at any rate.

I've looked at the Express versions, and probably will play with them more, but I'm kinda waiting for them to "pull it out" and make a decision (political stuff involved there).

I'm not especially worried that I can't learn the stuff. When I think about starting over, and all the stuff that there will be to learn, it sometimes gets to me a bit. But then I remind myself of how gradually I learned all that I know about the stuff I do now, and that LotusScript and VBScript are close cousins in the first place, and calm back down. Right now I'm mostly disgusted about the delay while they get around to making a stinking decision, but there's no help for that.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Thanks for the thorough overview.

Sounds like the thing to look for is probably an ADO class, then. That should cover the bases, at any rate.

"ADO" versus "ADO.NET" -- they are two very different technologies that fulfill similar roles. Make sure you know which you are talking about when you hunt for resources.

Originally Posted by NatCh

I've looked at the Express versions, and probably will play with them more, but I'm kinda waiting for them to "pull it out" and make a decision (political stuff involved there).

Just get them and go for it. Write a library management tool. After all, you have an empire to run. If you're into home projects (computer-controlled disco-lit floors), you might be amused by http://blogs.msdn.com/coding4fun/default.aspx. (For example, see http://blog.makezine.com/archive/200...tch_clock.html)

Originally Posted by NatCh

Right now I'm mostly disgusted about the delay while they get around to making a stinking decision, but there's no help for that.

Welcome to the industry

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

"ADO" versus "ADO.NET" -- they are two very different technologies that fulfill similar roles. Make sure you know which you are talking about when you hunt for resources.

Yes, I meant the .NET version. Sorry, I was being sloppy, probably because I was in an airport terminal.

Originally Posted by kfarmer

Just get them and go for it. Write a library management tool. After all, you have an empire to run. If you're into home projects (computer-controlled disco-lit floors), you might be amused by http://blogs.msdn.com/coding4fun/default.aspx. (For example, see http://blog.makezine.com/archive/200...tch_clock.html)

Unfortunately, while I'm pretty clever at solving problems when I'm presented with them, if I do say it myself, I'm not very good at coming up with my own projects.

The only one I've come up with in the past several years that I'd like to do on my own, is way too complex to try as a "starter" in a new environment.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Yes, I meant the .NET version. Sorry, I was being sloppy, probably because I was in an airport terminal.

Unfortunately, while I'm pretty clever at solving problems when I'm presented with them, if I do say it myself, I'm not very good at coming up with my own projects.

The only one I've come up with in the past several years that I'd like to do on my own, is way too complex to try as a "starter" in a new environment.

I have that problem, which is why it's been most of a decade since I've updated my website. Focus on a part of it (like retrieving data from Amazon Web Services...)

[NatCh]

I'll have look at the pages you've listed, perhaps some more manageable project will suggest itself from what's there.

[brecklundin]

LINQ might be one of the biggest 'secrets' out there today. I read the doco on it a few years back and thought it was a can't miss sort of thing. Yet, few if any developers even know it exists.

BTW, I really recommend the Express editions of the MS tools if that is the way you feel you want to go. They are suprisingly excellent tools. Especially SQL Server Express which lets you run and test SQL server databases w/o a need to a full SQL server. It's much better then the old MSDE.

[moz]

LINQ is very cool, I've been using it when I deal with databases for a while. It has few limits and is not too slow, which is a nice change from the previous generic database access technologies.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

LINQ might be one of the biggest 'secrets' out there today. I read the doco on it a few years back and thought it was a can't miss sort of thing. Yet, few if any developers even know it exists.

You'd think spending the last two years telling everyone about it would get the word out, but it's amazing how wall-eyed people can be. :P

Which is a pity, since there's some really slick things you can do with the underlying features.

Originally Posted by brecklundin

BTW, I really recommend the Express editions of the MS tools if that is the way you feel you want to go. They are suprisingly excellent tools. Especially SQL Server Express which lets you run and test SQL server databases w/o a need to a full SQL server. It's much better then the old MSDE.

Indeed.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by moz

LINQ is very cool, I've been using it when I deal with databases for a while. It has few limits and is not too slow, which is a nice change from the previous generic database access technologies.

The limits (eg, batch updates) are pretty much implementation details. There already exist third-party products that allow you to do, say, db.Delete<Customer>(c => c.City == "London") in a single call to the db. I think the clever programmer could whip up a primitive version of that using regex.