French Typography

[ahi]

I have just been looking at L'île mystérieuse, and found something that I find difficult to reconcile with what I know about French typography thus far.

-- Bien. Vous vous embarquerez alors sur le canot qui vous a
amenés. Mais, avant d’abandonner le Nautilus, allez à l’arrière,
et là, ouvrez deux larges robinets qui se trouvent sur la ligne de
flottaison. L’eau pénétrera dans les réservoirs, et le Nautilus
s’enfoncera peu à peu sous les eaux pour aller reposer au fond de
l’abîme.»

Is there really supposed to be a closing guillemot? If so, why, and under what other circumstances?

Also, there seems to be a fairly liberal mixing of the use of the quotation dash and guillemots...

«Écoutez-moi bien, messieurs, reprit-il. Le Nautilus est
emprisonné dans cette grotte, dont l’entrée s’est exhaussée. Mais,
s’il ne peut quitter sa prison, il peut du moins s’engouffrer dans
l’abîme qu’elle recouvre et y garder ma dépouille mortelle.»

Les colons écoutaient religieusement les paroles du mourant.

«Demain, après ma mort, Monsieur Smith, reprit le capitaine, vous
et vos compagnons, vous quitterez le Nautilus, car toutes les
richesses qu’il contient doivent disparaître avec moi. Un seul
souvenir vous restera du prince Dakkar, dont vous savez maintenant
l’histoire. Ce coffret... là... renferme pour plusieurs millions
de diamants, la plupart, souvenirs de l’époque où, père et époux,
j’ai presque cru au bonheur, et une collection de perles
recueillies par mes amis et moi au fond des mers. Avec ce trésor,
vous pourrez faire, à un jour donné, de bonnes choses. Entre des
mains comme les vôtres et celles de vos compagnons, Monsieur
Smith, l’argent ne saurait être un péril. Je serai donc, de là-
haut, associé à vos oeuvres, et je ne les crains pas!»

Après quelques instants de repos, nécessités par son extrême
faiblesse, le capitaine Nemo reprit en ces termes:

«Demain, vous prendrez ce coffret, vous quitterez ce salon, dont
vous fermerez la porte; puis, vous remonterez sur la plate-forme
du Nautilus, et vous rabattrez le capot, que vous fixerez au moyen
de ses boulons.

-- Nous le ferons, capitaine, répondit Cyrus Smith.

-- Bien. Vous vous embarquerez alors sur le canot qui vous a
amenés. Mais, avant d’abandonner le Nautilus, allez à l’arrière,
et là, ouvrez deux larges robinets qui se trouvent sur la ligne de
flottaison. L’eau pénétrera dans les réservoirs, et le Nautilus
s’enfoncera peu à peu sous les eaux pour aller reposer au fond de
l’abîme.»

Et, sur un geste de Cyrus Smith, le capitaine ajouta:

«Ne craignez rien! Vous n’ensevelirez qu’un mort!»

Ni Cyrus Smith, ni aucun de ses compagnons n’eussent cru devoir
faire une observation au capitaine Nemo. C’étaient ses dernières
volontés qu’il leur transmettait, et ils n’avaient qu’à s’y
conformer.

«J’ai votre promesse, messieurs? Ajouta le capitaine Nemo.

-- Vous l’avez, capitaine», répondit l’ingénieur.

Le capitaine fit un signe de remerciement et pria les colons de le
laisser seul pendant quelques heures.

Gédéon Spilett insista pour rester près de lui, au cas où une
crise se produirait, mais le mourant refusa, en disant:

«Je vivrai jusqu’à demain, monsieur!»

Why isn't just one or just the other being consistently used? If this is correct, what criteria determines which is appropriate at what time.

In Hungarian, a book that uses quotation dashes has few (if any) quotation marks or guillemots at all... so I'm quite confused by the above French stuff.

Assuming that the above is all correct, are there any other peculiarities of French typography (of a more complex sort than leaving non-breaking spaces between words and sentence ending punctuation) people could share with me that superficial tutorials/guide books are likely to fail to mention?

- Ahi

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by ahi

Is there really supposed to be a closing guillemot? If so, why, and under what other circumstances?

No, there should be no guillemot, a guillemet is needed, though.

Also, there seems to be a fairly liberal mixing of the use of the quotation dash and guillemots...

It's not exactly a mix, the thing is: A piece of dialogue starts with a guillemet and ends with a guillemet. Character lines inside are marked with an em-dash. The words of the narrator are not separated by anything other than normal punctuation (usually commas), but the closing guillemet comes before the final narrator's words, if any.

Like this:

« Tomorrow, you'll take the case blah blah blah.

-- We will do it, captain, replied Cyrus Smith.

-- Fine. You will blah blah blah. Blah blah blah at the bottom of the sea », said he.

(of a more complex sort than leaving non-breaking spaces between words and sentence ending punctuation)

It's only before "double" punctuation (; : ? !) and on the inner side of « ».

[zelda_pinwheel]

hm, i am not positive about all the rules, but in french, the first speech should have an opening guillemet, the following replies should be indicated by an emdash, and the end of the dialogue should be indicated by closing guillemet, like in the example in your second quotation, with guillemets enclosing the exchange and an emdash to show that it's a second person speaking (see wikipedia : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillem...des_guillemets).

and guillemets are used to enclose a citation or reported speech within a sentence, like in the example :

Et, sur un geste de Cyrus Smith, le capitaine ajouta:

«Ne craignez rien! Vous n’ensevelirez qu’un mort!»

if one person speaks for more than one paragraph, there is often a closing guillemet at the end of their speech.

but it seems to me that i've seen a dialogue indicated using only emdashes, so perhaps the guillemets + emdashes rule is evolving.

edit : never mind, just ask jellby.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Jellby

No, there should be no guillemot, a guillemet is needed, though.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

but it seems to me that i've seen a dialogue indicated using only emdashes, so perhaps the guillemets + emdashes rule is evolving.

I have the feeling guillemets+dashes is used in older books, while newer ones tend to prefer only dashes. But I don't have enough French books to check that, you are probably in a better position than I for that task

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I have the feeling guillemets+dashes is used in older books, while newer ones tend to prefer only dashes. But I don't have enough French books to check that, you are probably in a better position than I for that task

that's my impression as well.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Jellby

No, there should be no guillemot, a guillemet is needed, though.

Damn you, spellcheck!!! You have crossed me for the last time!

Originally Posted by Jellby

It's not exactly a mix, the thing is: A piece of dialogue starts with a guillemet and ends with a guillemet. Character lines inside are marked with an em-dash. The words of the narrator are not separated by anything other than normal punctuation (usually commas), but the closing guillemet comes before the final narrator's words, if any.

Like this:

« Tomorrow, you'll take the case blah blah blah.

-- We will do it, captain, replied Cyrus Smith.

-- Fine. You will blah blah blah. Blah blah blah at the bottom of the sea », said he.

This does not strike Francophones as unaesthetic? Unbalanced guillemets, that is?

The Hungarian and Russian and et cetera approach would be:

-- Tomorrow, you'll take the case blah blah blah.

-- We will do it, captain -- replied Cyrus Smith.

-- Fine. You will blah blah blah. Blah blah blah at the bottom of the sea -- said he.

... and there is even stuff like:

-- Consider, Sir, -- argued the peasant -- that even our Lord Jesus Christ was betrayed by one quite close to him!

- Ahi

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by ahi

Damn you, spellcheck!!! You have crossed me for the last time!

This does not strike Francophones as unaesthetic? Unbalanced guillemets, that is?

i think i'm just used to it, i don't really notice it. i even had to think for a while about the rule, it's been a long time since i studied it. plus, as i said, more recent books just use emdashes to indicate dialogue, so it's rarely the case anymore. it makes sense though in a way, setting apart the entire dialogue from the rest of the text. i guess my answer is, it doesn't bother me.

The Hungarian and Russian and et cetera approach would be:

very interesting to see all the different rules for dialogue in different languages. i think i've seen the use of emdashes to set off a phrase within a reply, but now i'm trying to remember what language it was in / translated from.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i think i'm just used to it, i don't really notice it. i even had to think for a while about the rule, it's been a long time since i studied it. plus, as i said, more recent books just use emdashes to indicate dialogue, so it's rarely the case anymore. it makes sense though in a way, setting apart the entire dialogue from the rest of the text. i guess my answer is, it doesn't bother me.

I do see the logic in it... and you are probably right, it's jarring to me for my not having encountered it before.

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

very interesting to see all the different rules for dialogue in different languages. i think i've seen the use of emdashes to set off a phrase within a reply, but now i'm trying to remember what language it was in / translated from.

It is. They are reminders that in some ways, most countries were islands of sorts unto themselves until recently (and some still are). Sometimes part of a group of islands with certain neighbouring and/or friendly countries... but in many ways, the average person's world view (that they probably fancied as being "universal" or at least "just normal/plain sensible") were at best decidedly national if not highly provincial (in the non-prejudicial sense of the word).

- Ahi

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by ahi

It is. They are reminders that in some ways, most countries were islands of sorts unto themselves until recently (and some still are). Sometimes part of a group of islands with certain neighbouring and/or friendly countries... but in many ways, the average person's world view (that they probably fancied as being "universal" or at least "just normal/plain sensible") were at best decidedly national if not highly provincial (in the non-prejudicial sense of the word).

- Ahi

...and some people thought they were just punctuation.

you make a good point actually (joking aside) and i agree. i wonder whether the different uses of guillemets will standardise now that technology is making culture and media so internationally accessible ?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i wonder whether the different uses of guillemets will standardise now that technology is making culture and media so internationally accessible ?

I can't image that it would...

There is just too much variation currently... most of which is doubtless still seen as the (only) right way by its users.

- Ahi

[LDBoblo]

Being a French person and going to school in France, I have to say typography doesn't exist in the French language. Just leave it alone because it's not important to French people who speak French to their French friends and colleagues in France. In fact, real French people who get a French education in France find it rude to think French needs any visual decoration at all. Damn outsiders imposing their rules on our language!

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Being a French person and going to school in France, I have to say typography doesn't exist in the French language. Just leave it alone because it's not important to French people who speak French to their French friends and colleagues. In fact, real French people who get a French education in France find it rude to think French needs any visual decoration at all. Damn outsiders imposing their rules on our language!

Hardy har-har!

I guess I was asking for that!

- Ahi

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by ahi

This does not strike Francophones as unaesthetic? Unbalanced guillemets, that is?

They are not unbalanced, they just enclose a multi-paragraph fragment.

The English style would be unbalanced for a multi-paragraph quote: an opening mark at the beginning of every paragraph, a closing mark only at the end of the last. But I guess Spanish is weirder here, we'd use a closing mark at the beginning of every paragraph but the first.

The Hungarian and Russian and et cetera approach would be:

Yes, and Spanish too: em-dashes everywhere. Though there are differences in the spacing rules and where to place the signs when they come together.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Jellby

They are not unbalanced, they just enclose a multi-paragraph fragment.

The English style would be unbalanced for a multi-paragraph quote: an opening mark at the beginning of every paragraph, a closing mark only at the end of the last. But I guess Spanish is weirder here, we'd use a closing mark at the beginning of every paragraph but the first.

I more meant visually unbalanced. To me the double quotation mark is "light" enough that it does not draw attention to itself. I find guillemets a bit louder though, and find it odd to see it not closely paired.

But yes, I do understand what you mean.

- Ahi