Big House vs Small House Publishing - Page 2

Steven Lake · 10-10-2010, 06:51 PM

I'm not against good changes if suggested. My problem is when they force you to change your book and end up slaughtering it. That's what I have issues with, and would like to avoid. And I say this because I've heard of plenty of authors who have signed with big houses and had their books butchered by the "improvements" the publishers suggested. Hence my "requirements".

bobavey · 10-11-2010, 02:00 PM

I, too, have gotten close with big publishers, but have never quite made it. Both of my books have been published by a small, but very good, publisher.

Beneath a Buried House

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003SE7J6I

chrischance · 10-12-2010, 08:12 AM

I have two books published with the Random House Group.
When the catalogue runs out of date, so do you. They are too busy promoting their new catalogues to be bothered with books they have spent their allocated time on.
Finding a small press to take your work is just as hard as finding the big boys who'll take it. Finding an agent is also difficult. This is a hard game we are in and I, for one, am grateful that e-books are here. Marketing is the problem with e-books, but I feel something may happen regarding that problem soon because things happen fast nowadays--look what happened to the typewriter; and what do you think will be the most popular Christmas present this year? Kindle and the likes, that's what I think, especially with today's kids wanting everything futuristic and cyber. Mums are also futuristic and will see the e-readers as a means to inducing their kids to read more without the playroom/dining room/kitchen/bedroom etc., being scattered with children's books etc., Kindle are advertising right now on TV--they need to wake up and put Santa leaning on a chimney pot reading one--if you get my drift.
Best,
Chris.
www.chrischance.co.uk
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/25588

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Christopher-...ntt_dp_epwbk_0

Steven Lake · 10-16-2010, 02:58 PM

Someone brought up a very interesting point recently in another thread about big house vs small house publishers which I've added to the list. It involves how the big houses treat their customers, which is more or less the same way they treat their authors, like cattle.

neilmarr · 10-17-2010, 09:49 AM

Certainly, Chris, if you're pitching a previously published book to a smaller house or agent, there will be little interest because it must be assumed that Random House (or whatever) has already fully exploited the title's market potential or it would have offered a contract extension and kept the title in print.

As for finding a smaller indie for a new work. it's pretty easy ... if you're as non-selective as the house itself.

Rule of thumb would be that the easier it is to land a contract with a small house, the less likely that house is to be selective and to offer significant editorial, technical and design input and energetic promotion and marketing.

As one of four editors at my own wee house with unquestioned acqisition rights, I can tell you that we're a tough sell. But ALL submissions are professionally assessed and we have a hit rate of maybe one in 200 from unsolicited new author subs. It's grim, but I suspect less grim than with the big boys because big commercial success is less of a consideration to us than sheer quality.

Do bear in mind how many small houses there are, though, in comparison to the accepted Big Five. Chances of acceptance are directly depedent on how many houses are approached.

Play with the statistics. EG: Harry Potter was rejected seventeen times before being picked up. Success rate of the ms, therefore, 100%. I often wonder how many offers I've declined that were eagerly accepted elsewhere so that my rejection rate includes a title that was actually 100% successful in placement.

Good luck and best wishes. Neil

chrischance · 10-23-2010, 11:12 AM

Thanks for that, Neil.
Your website is impressive and I have read the important bits so I will send a synopsis etc., which I hope piques your interest.
Best,
Chris.

joycedb · 10-23-2010, 11:31 AM

Chris, it's so refreshing to see you use the word, "Piques" in the proper context and spelled correctly. I see so many writers use "Peek" or "Peak" and I want to tell them that it's not the way to attract readers. But, of course, I don't want to humiliate them publicly, so I keep it to myself.

Joyce

neilmarr · 10-23-2010, 11:53 AM

And aquisitions editors, Joy, are more than sensitive to such careful spelling. Many a manuscript is knocked back because spelling and grammar is just so darned annoying that you can't take a story or its characters seriously.

You know the greatest fault we find recently, though? It's authors (and amateur agencies) submitting work blanket-wise. They don't even visit pubslishers' websites to see what kind of books (which genres) they work with. So they do not follow simple guidlines like email query, synopsis and first two chapters as a taster and which genres are not considered.

These subs we do not reject out of hand (though most would consign the sender's addres to the junk mail box), we simply place them in the rejection file for the month (which is always bursting at the seams with nonsense) with a curt reply to say: "Do not spam us -- read our submissions guidlines. in plain sight to anyone who takes thirty seconds to look."

With word processors making the production of crap easier and email making mass simultaneous submission a matter of course, you would hardly believe what we're deluged with. I must have knocked back two dozen mass-mail submissions today alone, simply because they were so obviously bloody mailshots.

Wanna sift the slushpile some day, Joy? You'd be welcome. Neil

DrDln · 04-29-2011, 01:10 AM

I think most of the authors would prefer to go with big house. But acceptance rate is very small. That's why many authors end up with small house or self-publishing.

Steven Lake · 05-10-2011, 06:02 PM

I went small, not because of the small acceptance rate, but because I get treated like a person and not a number, or a book to be butchered. Plus, just because you go small doesn't mean you aren't a good author either. I know many people, myself included, who have gone small house press and ended up winning a lot of writing awards, including some of the big name awards as well.

DrDln · 05-31-2011, 06:28 PM

Yes, one can be best selling author with small or even indie. But in majority of the cases big house authors sell more books. This doesn't mean these are the best books but it is better marketing and name recognition that helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

I went small, not because of the small acceptance rate, but because I get treated like a person and not a number, or a book to be butchered. Plus, just because you go small doesn't mean you aren't a good author either. I know many people, myself included, who have gone small house press and ended up winning a lot of writing awards, including some of the big name awards as well.

Steven Lake · 06-01-2011, 06:48 AM

Yeah, true. Heck, you can sell a pile of poo if you market it right.

Freeshadow · 06-01-2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Yeah, true. Heck, you can sell a pile of poo if you market it right.

You mean like that?

Wikipedia: Artist's shit

mcrow24 · 06-02-2011, 11:11 AM

I have yet to have a novel published either way but from other writers I know:

Large publisher will give you the highest ceiling and higher starting point as far as sales and income go. They're more restrictive and more involved in what you write. You'll have more books, in more places but always marketed all that much. If it's your first book more than likely most of the marketing will still be up to the author.

Small Press starts with a pretty low ceiling (limited print runs, perhaps only in the 100's). Some small press authors will sell as many books as authors with larger publishers, but not often. Many small press publishers do not offer advances, but give you a higher percentage of the net sales. Most of the time you will have complete freedom in writing so long as it's in the niche that they publish in. The culture is a lot different, more like friends than having a overbearing editor breathing down your neck.

Some authors can be quite successful in with Small Press publishers. If you write in a niche and have a relatively large cult following like Brian Keene or someone like that.

There have been cases where a small press publisher has a relationship with a larger publisher. One example is Permuted Press who has a deal with Simon and Schuster. If you write horror and get published with Permuted Press, you have a chance of you book being picked up by S&S.

There are also many cases where an author started out with a small publisher and was later picked up by a major publisher.

So, I'd say that if going the route of the major publishers does not work out, go with a quality small publisher. Even a small publisher can get your work in front of the eyes of more people and increase chances of being picked up by a larger one.

Steven Lake · 06-02-2011, 06:06 PM

Freeshadow: lol! Yeah, that's one way to sell poo with good marketing.

mcrow24: Yeah, I went small press and am doing pretty well. Would I like to get picked up by a big house? Sure, I think it'd be fun. The catch is, if I do get picked up, either the book goes as is, or they don't get it. Period. I will not have any publishers telling me how I'll write my story. That may sound arrogant, but given the butchering I've seen happen to some really great stories, I'd rather go without than have my story destroyed by some hack wanting to make it a formula novel.

Either the story stands on its own, or it doesn't stand. And I'm one who'll stand 100% behind his stories. If people think they suck, or it's got issues, I have no problems fixing it, because I don't claim to always be right. But I'm not going to have someone hack up my story just because they think it'd be cool to see the main character as something entirely different than I designed them to be. It's one thing to fix issues with a story. It's something entirely different to have someone make you rewrite the story in their image.

10-23-2010, 11:53 AM	#23
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	And aquisitions editors, Joy, are more than sensitive to such careful spelling. Many a manuscript is knocked back because spelling and grammar is just so darned annoying that you can't take a story or its characters seriously. You know the greatest fault we find recently, though? It's authors (and amateur agencies) submitting work blanket-wise. They don't even visit pubslishers' websites to see what kind of books (which genres) they work with. So they do not follow simple guidlines like email query, synopsis and first two chapters as a taster and which genres are not considered. These subs we do not reject out of hand (though most would consign the sender's addres to the junk mail box), we simply place them in the rejection file for the month (which is always bursting at the seams with nonsense) with a curt reply to say: "Do not spam us -- read our submissions guidlines. in plain sight to anyone who takes thirty seconds to look." With word processors making the production of crap easier and email making mass simultaneous submission a matter of course, you would hardly believe what we're deluged with. I must have knocked back two dozen mass-mail submissions today alone, simply because they were so obviously bloody mailshots. Wanna sift the slushpile some day, Joy? You'd be welcome. Neil Last edited by neilmarr; 10-23-2010 at 11:57 AM. Reason: to add a curse word

04-29-2011, 01:10 AM	#24
DrDln Banned Posts: 1,527 Karma: 2349214 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Mountain House, CA Device: kindle	I think most of the authors would prefer to go with big house. But acceptance rate is very small. That's why many authors end up with small house or self-publishing. Last edited by DrDln; 05-31-2011 at 06:23 PM.

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10-10-2010, 06:51 PM	#16
Steven Lake Sci-Fi Author Posts: 1,157 Karma: 14743509 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Device: PC (Calibre)	I'm not against good changes if suggested. My problem is when they force you to change your book and end up slaughtering it. That's what I have issues with, and would like to avoid. And I say this because I've heard of plenty of authors who have signed with big houses and had their books butchered by the "improvements" the publishers suggested. Hence my "requirements".

10-11-2010, 02:00 PM	#17
bobavey Bob Avey Posts: 117 Karma: 501082 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Broken Arrow, OK Device: none	I, too, have gotten close with big publishers, but have never quite made it. Both of my books have been published by a small, but very good, publisher. Beneath a Buried House http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003SE7J6I

10-12-2010, 08:12 AM	#18
chrischance Member Posts: 11 Karma: 695354 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire, England. Device: PC	I have two books published with the Random House Group. When the catalogue runs out of date, so do you. They are too busy promoting their new catalogues to be bothered with books they have spent their allocated time on. Finding a small press to take your work is just as hard as finding the big boys who'll take it. Finding an agent is also difficult. This is a hard game we are in and I, for one, am grateful that e-books are here. Marketing is the problem with e-books, but I feel something may happen regarding that problem soon because things happen fast nowadays--look what happened to the typewriter; and what do you think will be the most popular Christmas present this year? Kindle and the likes, that's what I think, especially with today's kids wanting everything futuristic and cyber. Mums are also futuristic and will see the e-readers as a means to inducing their kids to read more without the playroom/dining room/kitchen/bedroom etc., being scattered with children's books etc., Kindle are advertising right now on TV--they need to wake up and put Santa leaning on a chimney pot reading one--if you get my drift. Best, Chris. www.chrischance.co.uk http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/25588 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Christopher-...ntt_dp_epwbk_0

10-16-2010, 02:58 PM	#19
Steven Lake Sci-Fi Author Posts: 1,157 Karma: 14743509 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Device: PC (Calibre)	Someone brought up a very interesting point recently in another thread about big house vs small house publishers which I've added to the list. It involves how the big houses treat their customers, which is more or less the same way they treat their authors, like cattle.

10-17-2010, 09:49 AM	#20
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	Certainly, Chris, if you're pitching a previously published book to a smaller house or agent, there will be little interest because it must be assumed that Random House (or whatever) has already fully exploited the title's market potential or it would have offered a contract extension and kept the title in print. As for finding a smaller indie for a new work. it's pretty easy ... if you're as non-selective as the house itself. Rule of thumb would be that the easier it is to land a contract with a small house, the less likely that house is to be selective and to offer significant editorial, technical and design input and energetic promotion and marketing. As one of four editors at my own wee house with unquestioned acqisition rights, I can tell you that we're a tough sell. But ALL submissions are professionally assessed and we have a hit rate of maybe one in 200 from unsolicited new author subs. It's grim, but I suspect less grim than with the big boys because big commercial success is less of a consideration to us than sheer quality. Do bear in mind how many small houses there are, though, in comparison to the accepted Big Five. Chances of acceptance are directly depedent on how many houses are approached. Play with the statistics. EG: Harry Potter was rejected seventeen times before being picked up. Success rate of the ms, therefore, 100%. I often wonder how many offers I've declined that were eagerly accepted elsewhere so that my rejection rate includes a title that was actually 100% successful in placement. Good luck and best wishes. Neil

10-23-2010, 11:12 AM	#21
chrischance Member Posts: 11 Karma: 695354 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire, England. Device: PC	Thanks for that, Neil. Your website is impressive and I have read the important bits so I will send a synopsis etc., which I hope piques your interest. Best, Chris.

10-23-2010, 11:31 AM	#22
joycedb Guru Posts: 997 Karma: 1086596 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Florida Device: none	Chris, it's so refreshing to see you use the word, "Piques" in the proper context and spelled correctly. I see so many writers use "Peek" or "Peak" and I want to tell them that it's not the way to attract readers. But, of course, I don't want to humiliate them publicly, so I keep it to myself. Joyce

05-10-2011, 06:02 PM	#25
Steven Lake Sci-Fi Author Posts: 1,157 Karma: 14743509 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Device: PC (Calibre)	I went small, not because of the small acceptance rate, but because I get treated like a person and not a number, or a book to be butchered. Plus, just because you go small doesn't mean you aren't a good author either. I know many people, myself included, who have gone small house press and ended up winning a lot of writing awards, including some of the big name awards as well.

06-01-2011, 06:48 AM	#27
Steven Lake Sci-Fi Author Posts: 1,157 Karma: 14743509 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Device: PC (Calibre)	Yeah, true. Heck, you can sell a pile of poo if you market it right.

06-02-2011, 11:11 AM	#29
mcrow24 Connoisseur Posts: 82 Karma: 35788 Join Date: May 2011 Device: Kindle,Augen "The book", Nook	I have yet to have a novel published either way but from other writers I know: Large publisher will give you the highest ceiling and higher starting point as far as sales and income go. They're more restrictive and more involved in what you write. You'll have more books, in more places but always marketed all that much. If it's your first book more than likely most of the marketing will still be up to the author. Small Press starts with a pretty low ceiling (limited print runs, perhaps only in the 100's). Some small press authors will sell as many books as authors with larger publishers, but not often. Many small press publishers do not offer advances, but give you a higher percentage of the net sales. Most of the time you will have complete freedom in writing so long as it's in the niche that they publish in. The culture is a lot different, more like friends than having a overbearing editor breathing down your neck. Some authors can be quite successful in with Small Press publishers. If you write in a niche and have a relatively large cult following like Brian Keene or someone like that. There have been cases where a small press publisher has a relationship with a larger publisher. One example is Permuted Press who has a deal with Simon and Schuster. If you write horror and get published with Permuted Press, you have a chance of you book being picked up by S&S. There are also many cases where an author started out with a small publisher and was later picked up by a major publisher. So, I'd say that if going the route of the major publishers does not work out, go with a quality small publisher. Even a small publisher can get your work in front of the eyes of more people and increase chances of being picked up by a larger one.

Advert

Advert

06-02-2011, 06:06 PM	#30
Steven Lake Sci-Fi Author Posts: 1,157 Karma: 14743509 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Michigan Device: PC (Calibre)	Freeshadow: lol! Yeah, that's one way to sell poo with good marketing. mcrow24: Yeah, I went small press and am doing pretty well. Would I like to get picked up by a big house? Sure, I think it'd be fun. The catch is, if I do get picked up, either the book goes as is, or they don't get it. Period. I will not have any publishers telling me how I'll write my story. That may sound arrogant, but given the butchering I've seen happen to some really great stories, I'd rather go without than have my story destroyed by some hack wanting to make it a formula novel. Either the story stands on its own, or it doesn't stand. And I'm one who'll stand 100% behind his stories. If people think they suck, or it's got issues, I have no problems fixing it, because I don't claim to always be right. But I'm not going to have someone hack up my story just because they think it'd be cool to see the main character as something entirely different than I designed them to be. It's one thing to fix issues with a story. It's something entirely different to have someone make you rewrite the story in their image.